Tiki rig mainsheet arrangement query

[Richard Gordon David]

Hi All, having just broughty my Tanenui/Tiki Hybrid from Faversham, Kent to the River Exe, Devon I am keen to return her tiki rig to soft wing standard, the last owner added a boom, it is very low bashed my head a few times and worst of all hampers access to cleats at the mast base. My question is this, I know the mainsheet is attached to the wire span just forward of the rudders, Does a conventional mainsheet tackle attach between the wire span and the leach cringle? It would seem just as dangerous having a mainsheet tackle thrashing about as a boom? Is the mainsheet to wire span attachment encouraged to be controllable i.e allow the mainsail to be adjusted more aerodynamically than just letting off a mainsheet spoiling sail shape? the previous owner said that often tiki mainsail has lines coming from the peak of the gaff to the boats quarters to control twist of the mainsail. I would appreciate any advice, It might be best for me to add that this boat has an aft cockpit all sail controls need to be easily reached by the helmsman. Cheers Richard David Tacenui Mae

[Robert Sheridan]

The short answer is yes.  The standard set up is to have horse between across the boat just forward of the rudders with control lines (ours, are on a purchase) to allow you to set the mainsheet angle in conjuction with the tension on the main which controls the twist.  The downhaul also affects how the sail sets, going to windward the peak halyard needs to be set up very tight so that there are creases in the main before it is sheeted in.  I have not seen anyone use control lines from the gaff, though it is a known technique. 

The mainsail foot is long enough that when flogging the block attached to the cringle is aft of the tiller bar on a Tiki where no one should be and hence safe.  When you put a reef in you have to be careful when hoisting, but you can hoist the sail up higher so that the block is well away from the deck.  We think it is safer than having a boom, particularly as you do not have to worry about accidental gybes.

When reefing I drop enough sail on deck to be able to roll it up without the cringle flogging and then rehoist.

[Ron Hall]

Richard,

The boats are all set up a little differently, but Robert has all the right principles. I have a Tiki 38, and we manage pretty much the same way. Just some thoughts on the differences.

1. Most people have found booms more trouble than they're worth. I considered putting one the 38 foresail because the standard triangle arrangement requires adjusting both sheets all the time, making short tacking difficult, and the three tackles require reconfiguring to go off the wind. The extra complexity and the construction, as well as the head banging issue, made me decide to stay with the plans. One additional advantage to not having a boom- when jybing the boat in heavy, a boom would shock the rig and itself when slamming over, where the soft sails simply twist to leeward as the foot rises, dissipating the energy.

2. Gaff vangs would potentially allow you to control twist in the sail, but would put additional stress on the vang jaws and I'm not too fond of the long lines running aloft with the possibility of fouling something else. We have learned to control the twist using the sheet and traveler, and don't care for the complexity of the vangs.

3.You need to be able to control both sheet tension and the position of the sheet in order to control twist. On the Tiki I have a triple block attached to the clew and a double block and two single blocks attached to the traveler line. The traveler line (your wire) runs from one side of the boat to the other; a single large block runs on the traveler line with the other sheet blocks attached, allowing the sheeting point for the main to be switched from one side of the boat to the other. The position of the mainsheet on the traveler is controlled by two lines each running from the mainsheet blocks to a block on opposite sides of the stern, and then to a cleat on each side of the cockpit. The mainsheet itself runs from triple block to double block, with the two outside lines going from the triple block to the two single blocks. Each sheet then goes from the single blocks to a block on each side at the stern, and then from there to a cleat in the cockpit. The advantage is that the mainsheet will roll across the traveler wire without changing sheet tension, and its position on the traveler is controlled separately.  The traveler and sheet can be controlled from either side, and the lines lead up the sides and don't interfere with the dinghy on the stern. Long explanation, simple when you see it. Can probably rustle up a photo if you are interested.

4. We lower the sail when reefing, at least as far as the intended reef, and pull the main into the cockpit (The clew is normally many feet behind the cockpit when sailing.) and change the sheet attachment point. The main thrashes around a little, but we've never felt in too much danger of being bashed. I normally tie in the aft two or three reef points before rehoisting, (otherwise they're hard to reach) then tie in the rest after the sail is up.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[Richard Gordon David]

Many thanks for this Ron, very clear and easily understood, my next question to the site is what's the best way to get hull/deck beam lashings tight, I think mine flexes a little too much for my liking? Thanks Nibby Tacenui mae
 
Ron Hall said:

Richard,

The boats are all set up a little differently, but Robert has all the right principles. I have a Tiki 38, and we manage pretty much the same way. Just some thoughts on the differences.

1. Most people have found booms more trouble than they're worth. I considered putting one the 38 foresail because the standard triangle arrangement requires adjusting both sheets all the time, making short tacking difficult, and the three tackles require reconfiguring to go off the wind. The extra complexity and the construction, as well as the head banging issue, made me decide to stay with the plans. One additional advantage to not having a boom- when jybing the boat in heavy, a boom would shock the rig and itself when slamming over, where the soft sails simply twist to leeward as the foot rises, dissipating the energy.

2. Gaff vangs would potentially allow you to control twist in the sail, but would put additional stress on the vang jaws and I'm not too fond of the long lines running aloft with the possibility of fouling something else. We have learned to control the twist using the sheet and traveler, and don't care for the complexity of the vangs.

3.You need to be able to control both sheet tension and the position of the sheet in order to control twist. On the Tiki I have a triple block attached to the clew and a double block and two single blocks attached to the traveler line. The traveler line (your wire) runs from one side of the boat to the other; a single large block runs on the traveler line with the other sheet blocks attached, allowing the sheeting point for the main to be switched from one side of the boat to the other. The position of the mainsheet on the traveler is controlled by two lines each running from the mainsheet blocks to a block on opposite sides of the stern, and then to a cleat on each side of the cockpit. The mainsheet itself runs from triple block to double block, with the two outside lines going from the triple block to the two single blocks. Each sheet then goes from the single blocks to a block on each side at the stern, and then from there to a cleat in the cockpit. The advantage is that the mainsheet will roll across the traveler wire without changing sheet tension, and its position on the traveler is controlled separately.  The traveler and sheet can be controlled from either side, and the lines lead up the sides and don't interfere with the dinghy on the stern. Long explanation, simple when you see it. Can probably rustle up a photo if you are interested.

4. We lower the sail when reefing, at least as far as the intended reef, and pull the main into the cockpit (The clew is normally many feet behind the cockpit when sailing.) and change the sheet attachment point. The main thrashes around a little, but we've never felt in too much danger of being bashed. I normally tie in the aft two or three reef points before rehoisting, (otherwise they're hard to reach) then tie in the rest after the sail is up.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[kim whitmyre]

I had two experienced sailors who wanted to see how the tiki mainsail worked: we had a very pleasant sail. One was amazed at how he flinched everytime the main self-tended, as he was expecting a boom to swing across! He loved it!

[Robert Sheridan]

It boils down to muscle or purchases.  The technique we use is to have a bar which we swing on as we make each turn and at the same time tap the turns with the handle of a hammer to ensure an even tension.  Once all the turns are on and the line tied off we use a frapping between the 2 sides to draw them together and get more tension.  There was a thread a while back in which people contributed their various techniques.

Richard Gordon David said:

Many thanks for this Ron, very clear and easily understood, my next question to the site is what's the best way to get hull/deck beam lashings tight, I think mine flexes a little too much for my liking? Thanks Nibby Tacenui mae
 
Ron Hall said:

Richard,

The boats are all set up a little differently, but Robert has all the right principles. I have a Tiki 38, and we manage pretty much the same way. Just some thoughts on the differences.

1. Most people have found booms more trouble than they're worth. I considered putting one the 38 foresail because the standard triangle arrangement requires adjusting both sheets all the time, making short tacking difficult, and the three tackles require reconfiguring to go off the wind. The extra complexity and the construction, as well as the head banging issue, made me decide to stay with the plans. One additional advantage to not having a boom- when jybing the boat in heavy, a boom would shock the rig and itself when slamming over, where the soft sails simply twist to leeward as the foot rises, dissipating the energy.

2. Gaff vangs would potentially allow you to control twist in the sail, but would put additional stress on the vang jaws and I'm not too fond of the long lines running aloft with the possibility of fouling something else. We have learned to control the twist using the sheet and traveler, and don't care for the complexity of the vangs.

3.You need to be able to control both sheet tension and the position of the sheet in order to control twist. On the Tiki I have a triple block attached to the clew and a double block and two single blocks attached to the traveler line. The traveler line (your wire) runs from one side of the boat to the other; a single large block runs on the traveler line with the other sheet blocks attached, allowing the sheeting point for the main to be switched from one side of the boat to the other. The position of the mainsheet on the traveler is controlled by two lines each running from the mainsheet blocks to a block on opposite sides of the stern, and then to a cleat on each side of the cockpit. The mainsheet itself runs from triple block to double block, with the two outside lines going from the triple block to the two single blocks. Each sheet then goes from the single blocks to a block on each side at the stern, and then from there to a cleat in the cockpit. The advantage is that the mainsheet will roll across the traveler wire without changing sheet tension, and its position on the traveler is controlled separately.  The traveler and sheet can be controlled from either side, and the lines lead up the sides and don't interfere with the dinghy on the stern. Long explanation, simple when you see it. Can probably rustle up a photo if you are interested.

4. We lower the sail when reefing, at least as far as the intended reef, and pull the main into the cockpit (The clew is normally many feet behind the cockpit when sailing.) and change the sheet attachment point. The main thrashes around a little, but we've never felt in too much danger of being bashed. I normally tie in the aft two or three reef points before rehoisting, (otherwise they're hard to reach) then tie in the rest after the sail is up.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[Randall S Anselmo]

Here's a photo of our technique for tensioning the frappings on the hull-to-beam lashings: 

http://api.ning.com/files/ZXYA6U4HsZTkCaMXbiD6-f93RjM*Xt1jMV6h*8XFxBI25iowW8A2SFELX8-0CasKdrPWo4Xz1fEBGsw7DtZkYBhnrGQfVTOA/DSC06660.JPG?width=139&height=104

Richard Gordon David said:

Many thanks for this Ron, very clear and easily understood, my next question to the site is what's the best way to get hull/deck beam lashings tight, I think mine flexes a little too much for my liking? Thanks Nibby Tacenui mae
 
Ron Hall said:

Richard,

The boats are all set up a little differently, but Robert has all the right principles. I have a Tiki 38, and we manage pretty much the same way. Just some thoughts on the differences.

1. Most people have found booms more trouble than they're worth. I considered putting one the 38 foresail because the standard triangle arrangement requires adjusting both sheets all the time, making short tacking difficult, and the three tackles require reconfiguring to go off the wind. The extra complexity and the construction, as well as the head banging issue, made me decide to stay with the plans. One additional advantage to not having a boom- when jybing the boat in heavy, a boom would shock the rig and itself when slamming over, where the soft sails simply twist to leeward as the foot rises, dissipating the energy.

2. Gaff vangs would potentially allow you to control twist in the sail, but would put additional stress on the vang jaws and I'm not too fond of the long lines running aloft with the possibility of fouling something else. We have learned to control the twist using the sheet and traveler, and don't care for the complexity of the vangs.

3.You need to be able to control both sheet tension and the position of the sheet in order to control twist. On the Tiki I have a triple block attached to the clew and a double block and two single blocks attached to the traveler line. The traveler line (your wire) runs from one side of the boat to the other; a single large block runs on the traveler line with the other sheet blocks attached, allowing the sheeting point for the main to be switched from one side of the boat to the other. The position of the mainsheet on the traveler is controlled by two lines each running from the mainsheet blocks to a block on opposite sides of the stern, and then to a cleat on each side of the cockpit. The mainsheet itself runs from triple block to double block, with the two outside lines going from the triple block to the two single blocks. Each sheet then goes from the single blocks to a block on each side at the stern, and then from there to a cleat in the cockpit. The advantage is that the mainsheet will roll across the traveler wire without changing sheet tension, and its position on the traveler is controlled separately.  The traveler and sheet can be controlled from either side, and the lines lead up the sides and don't interfere with the dinghy on the stern. Long explanation, simple when you see it. Can probably rustle up a photo if you are interested.

4. We lower the sail when reefing, at least as far as the intended reef, and pull the main into the cockpit (The clew is normally many feet behind the cockpit when sailing.) and change the sheet attachment point. The main thrashes around a little, but we've never felt in too much danger of being bashed. I normally tie in the aft two or three reef points before rehoisting, (otherwise they're hard to reach) then tie in the rest after the sail is up.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[Thomas Nance]

Hi Ron

I am looking to smarten up my mainsheet/traveler on my catamaran, not a Wharram but sports the tiki rig. I don't fully understand how you have set up your traveler and mainsheet. If possible could I get a look at a picture of the set up. My boat came with a system that didn't allow the traveler to be adjusted without chainging the mainsheets pull. Very frustrating and meant I needed to traverse the cockpit from side to side to adjust the sail. Slow and painful.

Cheers

Thomas

Ron Hall said:

Richard,

The boats are all set up a little differently, but Robert has all the right principles. I have a Tiki 38, and we manage pretty much the same way. Just some thoughts on the differences.

1. Most people have found booms more trouble than they're worth. I considered putting one the 38 foresail because the standard triangle arrangement requires adjusting both sheets all the time, making short tacking difficult, and the three tackles require reconfiguring to go off the wind. The extra complexity and the construction, as well as the head banging issue, made me decide to stay with the plans. One additional advantage to not having a boom- when jybing the boat in heavy, a boom would shock the rig and itself when slamming over, where the soft sails simply twist to leeward as the foot rises, dissipating the energy.

2. Gaff vangs would potentially allow you to control twist in the sail, but would put additional stress on the vang jaws and I'm not too fond of the long lines running aloft with the possibility of fouling something else. We have learned to control the twist using the sheet and traveler, and don't care for the complexity of the vangs.

3.You need to be able to control both sheet tension and the position of the sheet in order to control twist. On the Tiki I have a triple block attached to the clew and a double block and two single blocks attached to the traveler line. The traveler line (your wire) runs from one side of the boat to the other; a single large block runs on the traveler line with the other sheet blocks attached, allowing the sheeting point for the main to be switched from one side of the boat to the other. The position of the mainsheet on the traveler is controlled by two lines each running from the mainsheet blocks to a block on opposite sides of the stern, and then to a cleat on each side of the cockpit. The mainsheet itself runs from triple block to double block, with the two outside lines going from the triple block to the two single blocks. Each sheet then goes from the single blocks to a block on each side at the stern, and then from there to a cleat in the cockpit. The advantage is that the mainsheet will roll across the traveler wire without changing sheet tension, and its position on the traveler is controlled separately.  The traveler and sheet can be controlled from either side, and the lines lead up the sides and don't interfere with the dinghy on the stern. Long explanation, simple when you see it. Can probably rustle up a photo if you are interested.

4. We lower the sail when reefing, at least as far as the intended reef, and pull the main into the cockpit (The clew is normally many feet behind the cockpit when sailing.) and change the sheet attachment point. The main thrashes around a little, but we've never felt in too much danger of being bashed. I normally tie in the aft two or three reef points before rehoisting, (otherwise they're hard to reach) then tie in the rest after the sail is up.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[kim whitmyre]

Thomas,

Here's what I did on my T26 Vaea:

Simply put, one sheet positions the main to port or starboard, and the other controls the draft. The strop that runs through the Antal snatch block allows the mainsail to self tend for short-tacking, or for when you don't need the extra trimming ability of the double-mainsheet system. If you look at pictures of Gaia, James & Hanneke's Pahi 63, there is a similar system in place for the mainsails.

[Matthias von Mutius]

 Hi, just my two euro-cents about the vangs:

I find them extremely useful for close haul courses, the twist of the upper sail is really only controlable with these lines that go up to the gaff. In my experience we gain about 5° and 10% boatspeed  going upwind when we set these vangs right. When these vangs are once set I do not need to reset them when short tacking, the lee vang always gets a bit loose when the gaff swings over.   The only problem that can occur is when hoisting or lowering the sail: the vangs love to either tangle around the rudders or they slip overboard and try to catch the rudderposts.

Regarding reefing, I always drop the sail completely when there is more wind, do the reefing job easy and unstressed in the cockpit and rehoist the main.  Using a double purchase haylyard  makes it very easy to hoist the main.

Have fun Matthias