How much epoxy resin? - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-29T14:03:15Zhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/how-much-epoxy-resin?commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A118302&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWEST isn't all that toxic. P…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2014-06-07:2195841:Comment:1183022014-06-07T21:50:20.436ZTam Dlhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/TamDl
<p>WEST isn't all that toxic. People forget they commercially built boats and hundreds of turbines with the stuff and had to pass OSHA. Their shop is not that big, or that high ceilinged, and I believe they said they never exceeded OSHA specs. It is good advice to protect yourself when using any of these products. </p>
<p></p>
<p>WEST does seem to affect some people badly relative to contact dermatitis. Though one guy I know who got all kinds of rashes, eventually settled on WEST, so some…</p>
<p>WEST isn't all that toxic. People forget they commercially built boats and hundreds of turbines with the stuff and had to pass OSHA. Their shop is not that big, or that high ceilinged, and I believe they said they never exceeded OSHA specs. It is good advice to protect yourself when using any of these products. </p>
<p></p>
<p>WEST does seem to affect some people badly relative to contact dermatitis. Though one guy I know who got all kinds of rashes, eventually settled on WEST, so some of the off brands are just waiting for a good body chemistry match to play with as well. In any case the key word is "contact".</p>
<p></p>
<p>Actual epoxy use is highly variable, it isn't just the stuff that gets on the boat, it is the waste also. There is very little reason to sand when building a boat, all wet sections on a boat up to about 30 feet should be done in as few steps as possible. So you get chemical bonds throughout, don't do any sanding to get mechanical bonds later. Realistically you are going to have to do a few steps, but think of a single step inside and out as a goal. The faster you work the lower your exposure also. </p>
<p>A 30 foot boat should take about 4 hours to sand, if you are doing more, you are doing it wrong. I had a chance to work with Jim Brown at WB, and he and his son did the final sand on the 23 foot tri they were building while we were at breakfast. Like 2-4 man hours, that is about sixty feet of hull, so probably compares to a 30 foot cat hull. Russ Brown, who has just published several books on epoxy and finishing is eqally fast. When he hit the west coast, jaws dropped at how fast he was. It isn't just hussle, it is knowing which steps to do in what order. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Think for a moment of the internet, where people pick up scraps of info that have no relative position in the whole project. They do one part, then hit the computer. You can't get professional results that way. There are doubtless many ways to do any of the jobs in a build, but once you commit to certain processes, there are far fewer ways to proceed from there.</p>
<p></p>
<p>An understanding of drywall work is useful (I mention it because many have done some), the basics of which are, complete all steps on the whole project at once, never move on to another step until one step is done. This means in an ideal world that your crew is large enough to complete a step in one wetting/cure. Solo you can do up to about 30 feet, but at least if you know what you are doing, you can leave the wet edge to a manageable size. Each step should be fully covered by the next step so that there isn't any sanding (there is always the odd booger to knock off). If you don't do that there is all kinds of confusion, one is fairing one part, while one hasn't fully covered glass somewhere else. Know what steps are required, and do all to completion then move on.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Cut as much epoxy off as you can to reduce sanding. This also depends on how you laid out your fabric, and bog, etc... But you should be able to get rid of a lot of sanding by quickly passing over the boat with scrapers, saws, files, etc...</p>
<p></p>
<p>Sanding is a whole subject all it's own. I once got a prize for a mag article on that subject. But baiscally big sanders, coarse grits, do not run the paper longer than it cuts. Faffing around with underpowered ROSs making lots of flowery dust is amateur hour. If you can see a real sander at work, it is worth the price of admissions.</p>
<p></p>
<p>There are a lot of places where epoxy can be saved, the epoxy scantlings in wharram boats are robust. But that involves diverging from plans which is a risky business.</p> I held an epoxy clinic for me…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-23:2195841:Comment:1087362013-10-23T15:04:00.773ZOmar M. Rashashhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/OmarMRashash
<p>I held an epoxy clinic for members of my woodturning club this past Saturday. They were all doing small projects and has the ability to measure as little as 3/8 oz. of mixed epoxy by using calibrated cups. They almost all mixed 2-3 times more epoxy than they needed.</p>
<p>Once epoxy is applied to the workpiece, the hurry to get it out of the mixing cup, before it fires, is over. There is usually plenty of time to mix an additonal batch if it's required. There will always be some epoxy…</p>
<p>I held an epoxy clinic for members of my woodturning club this past Saturday. They were all doing small projects and has the ability to measure as little as 3/8 oz. of mixed epoxy by using calibrated cups. They almost all mixed 2-3 times more epoxy than they needed.</p>
<p>Once epoxy is applied to the workpiece, the hurry to get it out of the mixing cup, before it fires, is over. There is usually plenty of time to mix an additonal batch if it's required. There will always be some epoxy left over, but if you do as Ann and Nev suggest, and plan ahead, you can minimize that waste.</p> Nev and I have mixed glue wit…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-23:2195841:Comment:1084362013-10-23T12:54:14.950ZAnn and Neville Clementhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/AnnandNevilleClement922
<p>Nev and I have mixed glue with a few friends over the years. Some are quite wasteful and mix way more than needed. When building Peace IV, we mixed all our glue in small batches so it did not overheat and go off before being used. We kept a list going of places which needed a little more glue or small jobs kept waiting where it could be used. I had lists for low density, micro fibers, colloidal silica, coating glue, etc. Other folks just tossed any left overs. Because we used pumps, we…</p>
<p>Nev and I have mixed glue with a few friends over the years. Some are quite wasteful and mix way more than needed. When building Peace IV, we mixed all our glue in small batches so it did not overheat and go off before being used. We kept a list going of places which needed a little more glue or small jobs kept waiting where it could be used. I had lists for low density, micro fibers, colloidal silica, coating glue, etc. Other folks just tossed any left overs. Because we used pumps, we made smaller and smaller mixes towards the end of the jobs we were doing that day. We used cleaned out evaporated milk cans because they were straight sided and we could get everything out of them leaving nothing to be tossed with the can. This is a big boat and I believe we saved a lot of glue this way. I know this is not quite the answer you were looking for with your question, but it is related. Ann and Nev</p> I think it very much depends…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-22:2195841:Comment:1085402013-10-22T20:56:44.163ZIanhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Ian516
<p>I think it very much depends on building conditions and finish required. Also, unless you are confident of a very quick build then I wouldn't buy it all at once.</p>
<p>For costing purposes, especially if you are using WEST which is quite toxic, remember that you should be using:</p>
<p>1) a powered airmask, which you will chuck after 6 months epoxying and need a new one(or at least new visor and seals) I started with Racal Airmasters then had to move on to the Trend one with the motor on…</p>
<p>I think it very much depends on building conditions and finish required. Also, unless you are confident of a very quick build then I wouldn't buy it all at once.</p>
<p>For costing purposes, especially if you are using WEST which is quite toxic, remember that you should be using:</p>
<p>1) a powered airmask, which you will chuck after 6 months epoxying and need a new one(or at least new visor and seals) I started with Racal Airmasters then had to move on to the Trend one with the motor on top which is unfortunately very tiring to wear (and expensive). I had one with the motor on your belt but it gets in the way inside a hull.</p>
<p>2) thousands of nitrile gloves, shoe covers, overalls, gauntlets, barrier cream etc</p>
<p>3) plenty of cleaning stuff (not acetone!)</p>
<p>I latterly switched to FLAG for finishing details.</p>
<p>I can be very boring about the health precautions that should be costed for and often aren't , as unfortunately being a pro in the wood business have seen a colleague die at 36 with nasal cancer dust related and have researched the subject of wood dusts and glue dusts quite a bit. (Don't start me on MDF!)</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p></p> The JW plans call 270 kg, and…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-21:2195841:Comment:1084232013-10-21T22:32:45.475ZRogerio Martinhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerioMartin
<p>The JW plans call 270 kg, and 200g/m² fiberglass, In TikiRio I use 320 kgs and 330g/m² biaxial (150m)</p>
<p>The JW plans call 270 kg, and 200g/m² fiberglass, In TikiRio I use 320 kgs and 330g/m² biaxial (150m)</p> You will always need more epo…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-20:2195841:Comment:1085012013-10-20T18:14:38.196Zpaul andersonhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/paulanderson
<p>You will always need more epoxy than you think,trust me.</p>
<p>You will always need more epoxy than you think,trust me.</p> I located the scanned page of…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-20:2195841:Comment:1084102013-10-20T14:21:40.022ZPeter Brookhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/PeterBrook
<p>I located the scanned page of the Tiki 30 plans which I believe were circa 2001.</p>
<p>Epoxy, Fillers and Glass Cloth. Codes are from West Product Catalogue:-</p>
<p></p>
<p><strong>Product Code Pack SIze Description Quantity</strong></p>
<p>Either C Pack 25Kg Resin and 5Kg Hardener 8-9 </p>
<p>Or 105C 25kg …</p>
<p>I located the scanned page of the Tiki 30 plans which I believe were circa 2001.</p>
<p>Epoxy, Fillers and Glass Cloth. Codes are from West Product Catalogue:-</p>
<p></p>
<p><strong>Product Code Pack SIze Description Quantity</strong></p>
<p>Either C Pack 25Kg Resin and 5Kg Hardener 8-9 </p>
<p>Or 105C 25kg Resin 8-9</p>
<p>and 205/6 5kg Hardener 8-9</p>
<p>301C Pump Set 5:1 1</p>
<p>403A 0.75 kg Microfibres 5</p>
<p>Either 410B and 1.5kg Microlite </p>
<p>406B 1.5kg Colloidal Silica</p>
<p>Or 407B and 3.5kg Low Density Filler 2 (Fillets)</p>
<p>410B 1.5kg Microlite 2 (Fairing)</p>
<p>733B 50m 150mm Glass Tape 2</p>
<p>741 100m 80cm width 200 g/m2m Glass Cloth 1</p>
<p>741-50 50m 80cm width 200 g/m2m Glass Cloth 1</p>
<p>7410 10m 80cm width 200 g/m2m Glass Cloth 1</p>
<p></p>
<p>This is exactly as written, so missing quantities and strange combination of 100m 50m and 10mm of Glass Cloth must make sense to Wharram Designs at least...</p>
<p></p>
<p>I am no expert, but I suspect different ambient/material temperatures would make a difference as to how thick or thin each layer is, thus how many coats may be needed for a given level of protection/weave filling. In addition, the waste that each builder generates must vary too. Rollers for example seem to take an extraordinary amount of resin before being ready to roll and most of these seems to remain as waste at the end! Different plywoods and woods themselves will soak up differing amounts of resin before building a satisfactory coating. Again, temperature and even moisture % in the wood/ply might alter take-up. </p>
<p></p>
<p>For myself, despite not maximising any advantage of bulk purchase, I will get around 75% of the total epoxy recommendation, then purchase any remainder as needed. With plywood though, I will over-order as I would not want to have to mix different specifications if one supplier cannot continue with identical specification (a common problem apparently in the Philippines). I am lucky that I have lots of storage space!</p>
<p></p>
<p>Good luck with your plans</p>
<p></p>
<p></p> What Galway said and-
When yo…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-20:2195841:Comment:1084972013-10-20T14:14:26.242ZOmar M. Rashashhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/OmarMRashash
<p>What Galway said and-</p>
<p>When you're applying fiberglass cloth to wood, you only need enough epoxy to hold the glass to the wood. Any epoxy over that amount is parasitic weight and does nothing to increase the strength of the composite. Once the glass has adhered to the wood, any additional coats should be epoxy, thickened with your choice of fairing compound. You will use less epoxy, and have an easier time sanding, if you don't use un-thickened epoxy to fill the weave in the glass. …</p>
<p>What Galway said and-</p>
<p>When you're applying fiberglass cloth to wood, you only need enough epoxy to hold the glass to the wood. Any epoxy over that amount is parasitic weight and does nothing to increase the strength of the composite. Once the glass has adhered to the wood, any additional coats should be epoxy, thickened with your choice of fairing compound. You will use less epoxy, and have an easier time sanding, if you don't use un-thickened epoxy to fill the weave in the glass. Additional coats of un-thickened epoxy should only be used to fill the weave when doing clear coat on kayaks or brightwork. For greater abrasion resistance, the use of one of the synthetic cloths, Xynole or Dynel, is better than multiple layers of fiberglass.</p>
<p>I've been trained in the proper application of epoxy and fiberglass. and supposedly know how to do it. I understand that any epoxy applied to the boat, either remains as added weight, or must be removed by sanding. When I build, I'm constantly reminding myself to use the minimum amount of epoxy to accomplish the required task. I know at what point I can sand no further without cutting into the glass. <strong>However, I too find myself using more epoxy, and coming in at a heavier build weight, than specified.</strong></p>
<p>The only conclusions I'm left with is that the materials (and time) estimates are based upon a very basic boat with just enough epoxy to hold it together and a very (ahem) workboat-like finish. I'd treat the epoxy estimate as a starting point for my first epoxy order with the understanding there will be a second order to finish the boat. How much you will actually need will be a function of how fast you climb the learning curve, how much time you're willing to put into the finish, and the quality of the finish you desire. IIRC, the finishing aspect of a boat is at least 1/2 of the labor expended.</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930096497?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930096497?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p> I want to thank you all for y…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-20:2195841:Comment:1081862013-10-20T13:29:44.529ZJohn Abbotthttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/JohnAbbott
<p>I want to thank you all for your comments and resources as this information has been very helpful. </p>
<p>I want to thank you all for your comments and resources as this information has been very helpful. </p> We often see comments on this…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-10-20:2195841:Comment:1081852013-10-20T11:19:54.397ZGalway Bayhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/GalwayBay
<p>We often see comments on this site about the accuracy of JWD estimates for epoxy etc. Many builders go over the estimates but do they add extra coats ? Are extra coats needed ?</p>
<p>I have built a number of small dinghies / kayaks and find 2 coats + paint is successful if all the joints are well sealed / covered with glass tape. A third coat outside gives peace of mind while the bottom panels will benefit from a layer of glass cloth if rough usage is envisaged. Sealing ply edges ie. at…</p>
<p>We often see comments on this site about the accuracy of JWD estimates for epoxy etc. Many builders go over the estimates but do they add extra coats ? Are extra coats needed ?</p>
<p>I have built a number of small dinghies / kayaks and find 2 coats + paint is successful if all the joints are well sealed / covered with glass tape. A third coat outside gives peace of mind while the bottom panels will benefit from a layer of glass cloth if rough usage is envisaged. Sealing ply edges ie. at gunnel etc. is the most difficult part and my only problems have started here. I have been told that the D. Fir ply always needs glass as it checks.</p>
<p>On my Wharram I used 2 coats to seal inside. Then just a quick light sand to key for paint. Outside I used 2 layers of 300g cloth and more below the waterline and even more on each side of the keel. I had in mind that this boat will suffer rough usage in fishing ports, drying out on unknown bottoms, against old stone quays etc. If I could provide a more sheltered life for it I would be happy with one coat of 200g - and maybe two below the water.</p>
<p>For the historians among you the original sheathing was polyester resin+ 450g mat + 600g cloth worked wet-on-dry with a total layup weight of 3kg. / sq M. This was common on Wharram cats at the time. I always suspected that an owner with problems had not used this full spec. For comparison my epoxy sheath weighs 1.2 kg/M while a single glass coat should weigh approx. 0.7 kg/M. On a 30 ft boat the weight saved could be as much as 200 kg. Still the old sheath was really really tough - practically a second boat !!</p>