How do you design a Crab Claw rig for your boat? - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-28T13:01:50Zhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/how-do-you-design-a-crab-claw-rig-for-your-boat?groupUrl=crabclawrigg&commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A123782&groupId=2195841%3AGroup%3A1381&feed=yes&xn_auth=noUse bip[od masts. They are i…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2018-05-30:2195841:Comment:1601192018-05-30T03:04:42.750ZMichael John Bankshttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/MichaelJohnBanks
<p>Use bip[od masts. They are infinitely adjustable, put a lot less strain on the vessel, and almost any rig can be used from them. The Egyptians used it on their reed boats for that reason. They can be made from aluminium high pressure irrigation tube or other mast scantling.<br/><br/>What one looses in the disturbance of the airflow by the extra mast, one gains in convenience. Especially useful on a trailer sailor cat. </p>
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<p>Use bip[od masts. They are infinitely adjustable, put a lot less strain on the vessel, and almost any rig can be used from them. The Egyptians used it on their reed boats for that reason. They can be made from aluminium high pressure irrigation tube or other mast scantling.<br/><br/>What one looses in the disturbance of the airflow by the extra mast, one gains in convenience. Especially useful on a trailer sailor cat. </p>
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<p></p> Re alternative masts and the…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-05-04:2195841:Comment:1422702016-05-04T09:09:05.252ZScott Veirshttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/ScottVeirs
<p>Re alternative masts and the crab claw, Thomas and I had similar thoughts and constructed an A-frame mast on our Hitia 17 with ~13m^2 crab claw (later ~20m^2). You can see photos of it along with performance data here --</p>
<p><a href="http://www.searunners.net/18-hour-trial-on-lake-wa-nighttime-circumnavigation-of-mercer-island/" target="_blank">http://www.searunners.net/18-hour-trial-on-lake-wa-nighttime-circumnavigation-of-mercer-island/</a><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Budget Boater…</cite></p>
<p>Re alternative masts and the crab claw, Thomas and I had similar thoughts and constructed an A-frame mast on our Hitia 17 with ~13m^2 crab claw (later ~20m^2). You can see photos of it along with performance data here --</p>
<p><a href="http://www.searunners.net/18-hour-trial-on-lake-wa-nighttime-circumnavigation-of-mercer-island/" target="_blank">http://www.searunners.net/18-hour-trial-on-lake-wa-nighttime-circumnavigation-of-mercer-island/</a><br/> <br/> <cite>Budget Boater said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/how-do-you-design-a-crab-claw-rig-for-your-boat?groupUrl=crabclawrigg&commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A142056&groupId=2195841%3AGroup%3A1381#2195841Comment124020"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Thanks for the link.</p>
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<p>I am also (seriously) considering using wishbone masts. I think there are more advantages to this than disadvantages. Wishbone masts will allow the sails to freely rotate. I would need to put a control line on the tack in order to keep it in a stable position, but could dictate that position. By easing the tack control line, I could also quickly move the sails from a "spars up" position, to "spars down" position when needed, with the ability to pull the tack to windward or leeward as necessary.</p>
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<p>The added advantage would be redundancy of masts. If something broke, I could modify the rig to single masts until repairs could be made. Will it work? Who knows (Except maybe Gene Perry who did it with carbon fiber masts and spars on his Tiki 26, but I have not heard from him in years.)</p>
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</blockquote> I've been pretty happy with b…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-05-04:2195841:Comment:1420562016-05-04T09:04:24.805ZScott Veirshttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/ScottVeirs
<p>I've been pretty happy with bamboo (~9m Tonkin spars), but have broken and reinforced it. Still need to try some solid wood or laminated ones (as Hans did for Wakataitea, Klaar did on Ontong Java, and Kiko does in his Hawaiian sprits'ls)...<br></br><br></br>There is a LOT to optimize in the design and construction of crab claw rigs (and I look forward to a full-on manual), but for now here are my best efforts to lend a hand:…</p>
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<p>I've been pretty happy with bamboo (~9m Tonkin spars), but have broken and reinforced it. Still need to try some solid wood or laminated ones (as Hans did for Wakataitea, Klaar did on Ontong Java, and Kiko does in his Hawaiian sprits'ls)...<br/><br/>There is a LOT to optimize in the design and construction of crab claw rigs (and I look forward to a full-on manual), but for now here are my best efforts to lend a hand:</p>
<p><a href="http://econscience.org/tiki/2015/02/15/performance-of-a-bamboo-polytarp-crab-claw-sail-on-a-tiki-21-catamaran/" target="_blank">http://econscience.org/tiki/2015/02/15/performance-of-a-bamboo-polytarp-crab-claw-sail-on-a-tiki-21-catamaran/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://econscience.org/tiki/2011/04/26/prepping-spars-for-the-big-crab-claw-main/" target="_blank">http://econscience.org/tiki/2011/04/26/prepping-spars-for-the-big-crab-claw-main/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://econscience.org/tiki/2011/05/11/rigging-the-13-m2-crab-claw/" target="_blank">http://econscience.org/tiki/2011/05/11/rigging-the-13-m2-crab-claw/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://econscience.org/tiki/2016/05/04/crab-claw-sails-the-mast-to-tack-connection/" target="_blank">http://econscience.org/tiki/2016/05/04/crab-claw-sails-the-mast-to-tack-connection/</a></p>
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<p>And here's a fledgling attempt at measuring sail dimensions and attachment positions in extant crab claw rigs:</p>
<p><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FHmZAbkyklk6xGKQklI8qAoeJorHgUw6FtSS-GfhGrc" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FHmZAbkyklk6xGKQklI8qAoeJorHgUw6FtSS-GfhGrc</a></p>
<p></p> Here's some performance data…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-02-17:2195841:Comment:1257652015-02-17T08:40:38.059ZScott Veirshttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/ScottVeirs
<p>Here's some performance data from a 13m2 crab claw (Wharram design) with Tonkin bamboo spars (now 4 years old, but with epoxy and paint coating in the Pacific Northwest) on a Tiki 21 --</p>
<p><a href="http://econscience.org/tiki/2015/02/15/performance-of-a-bamboo-polytarp-crab-claw-sail-on-a-tiki-21-catamaran/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://econscience.org/tiki/2015/02/15/performance-of-a-bamboo-poly...</a></p>
<p>We're trying this sail on a Hitia 17' now but want to get better…</p>
<p>Here's some performance data from a 13m2 crab claw (Wharram design) with Tonkin bamboo spars (now 4 years old, but with epoxy and paint coating in the Pacific Northwest) on a Tiki 21 --</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://econscience.org/tiki/2015/02/15/performance-of-a-bamboo-polytarp-crab-claw-sail-on-a-tiki-21-catamaran/" target="_blank">http://econscience.org/tiki/2015/02/15/performance-of-a-bamboo-poly...</a></p>
<p>We're trying this sail on a Hitia 17' now but want to get better upwind performance, especially in light wind. Thinking about windsurfer masts or building top antenna mast sections as spars inside sleeves along foot and luff. Maybe you could get these in Texas? Put two 4.8m windsurfer masts end to end with a section of the antenna stuff and you could get 36' with most strength in the middle where halyards/sheets attach and flexibility at the outer tips.</p> Thanks for the link.
I am al…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2014-12-16:2195841:Comment:1240202014-12-16T15:04:34.925ZBudget Boaterhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/BudgetBoater
<p>Thanks for the link.</p>
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<p>I am also (seriously) considering using wishbone masts. I think there are more advantages to this than disadvantages. Wishbone masts will allow the sails to freely rotate. I would need to put a control line on the tack in order to keep it in a stable position, but could dictate that position. By easing the tack control line, I could also quickly move the sails from a "spars up" position, to "spars down" position when needed, with the ability to pull the…</p>
<p>Thanks for the link.</p>
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<p>I am also (seriously) considering using wishbone masts. I think there are more advantages to this than disadvantages. Wishbone masts will allow the sails to freely rotate. I would need to put a control line on the tack in order to keep it in a stable position, but could dictate that position. By easing the tack control line, I could also quickly move the sails from a "spars up" position, to "spars down" position when needed, with the ability to pull the tack to windward or leeward as necessary.</p>
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<p>The added advantage would be redundancy of masts. If something broke, I could modify the rig to single masts until repairs could be made. Will it work? Who knows (Except maybe Gene Perry who did it with carbon fiber masts and spars on his Tiki 26, but I have not heard from him in years.)</p> http://tamamoana.blogspot.com…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2014-12-16:2195841:Comment:1240192014-12-16T08:09:29.447ZAlexhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/atkins196Alexatkins
<a href="http://tamamoana.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2007-09-03T10:23:00-07:00&max-results=7&m=0" target="_blank">http://tamamoana.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2007-09-03T10:23:00-07:00&max-results=7&m=0</a><br />
<br />
Some interesting reading further down on experimenting with the cc rig.
<a href="http://tamamoana.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2007-09-03T10:23:00-07:00&max-results=7&m=0" target="_blank">http://tamamoana.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2007-09-03T10:23:00-07:00&max-results=7&m=0</a><br />
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Some interesting reading further down on experimenting with the cc rig. Well, one way or another, I w…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2014-12-15:2195841:Comment:1238772014-12-15T23:21:11.060ZBudget Boaterhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/BudgetBoater
<p>Well, one way or another, I will get it rigged. If it works, great. If it doesn't, I will adjust it until it does, even if that means scrapping it and starting over at some point.</p>
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<p>For now I am going to stick with the Ketch until something specific points me in another direction. If I eventually need to reposition it and add a jib, then I will cross that bridge when I get to it (that might even be before I launch it, who knows....)</p>
<p>Well, one way or another, I will get it rigged. If it works, great. If it doesn't, I will adjust it until it does, even if that means scrapping it and starting over at some point.</p>
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<p>For now I am going to stick with the Ketch until something specific points me in another direction. If I eventually need to reposition it and add a jib, then I will cross that bridge when I get to it (that might even be before I launch it, who knows....)</p> hey BB. don't get me wrong. i…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2014-12-15:2195841:Comment:1238742014-12-15T22:56:15.136Zwakataiteahttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/wakataitea
<p>hey BB. don't get me wrong. i am not questioning your capability of being an good seaman or boat builder.<br></br> i am sharing my experience and concern about this CC rigg. <br></br> when you invited me to join you blog here i was number 26 i think. since then i am following your projects too.<br></br> looks like you have way more experience with bad weather then i do. i life and sail the oceans since august 1999 non stop.<br></br> i never counted really but i guess i have 40000 plus miles behind me. …</p>
<p>hey BB. don't get me wrong. i am not questioning your capability of being an good seaman or boat builder.<br/> i am sharing my experience and concern about this CC rigg. <br/> when you invited me to join you blog here i was number 26 i think. since then i am following your projects too.<br/> looks like you have way more experience with bad weather then i do. i life and sail the oceans since august 1999 non stop.<br/> i never counted really but i guess i have 40000 plus miles behind me. so, it looks like we both know what we are talking about. <br/> <br/> aluna: i followed this blog and we had email contact when he was planing to sail down to NZ. i never reed some ready detailed stuff about his CC rigg and its performance. actually i miss him on this page too. they all talk about there island experience but never about there boat experience. that's a pitty. even a container can make it down from north america to NZ with a 200$ sail. i would love to know , learn, from his experience. <br/> hans klaar: yes i know his guy and this very well. we are kind of brothers and believe me, i has a smile on his face every time when people think or plan about having a CC rigg. he is the CC rigg guru, thats for sure. there is nobody (still alive) who sailed more miles then him under a CC rigg. even the islanders in the not pacific do not have his knowledge.<br/> his tahine was a nice looking boat but a shit rigg. i meet him in Tahiti when he came ones again after a passage, out of the bush with a bamboo stick on his shoulder and a machete in his hand. look were he is now. in all this years he developed a CC rig which last and has good performance. his tahine was a trail and error boat. <br/> him and us build the boats in the same time and we stayed in contact all the time. he helped us, working out the best performance of this CC rig, regarding to the size of boat we have. <br/> the last to ontong javas and us have the exact same typ of CC rig. and if we throw or our miles together in one pot it will be close to 50.000 NM sailing a CC rig in open ocean. <br/> james wharram wrote ones on his web pages about hans boat that they would never be able to build (design) a wharram cut this size with a CC rig. and they never did. vaka moana and his outrigger canoe are in a size of boat, were everything is possible. you can see on the development on there page that it is not in there faivour that that wakataitea sails with this rig. they took us of his page because peoople start asking question they can not answer. anyway. they ignore your page too. a pitty.<br/> this model is a nice pice and a had a picture hanging on my wall to when i build wakataitea. but look it is a model. look at the size of the top front spare. but you will figure it out i guess. <br/> maybe you will make it happen. and show us how it works best. <br/> i would love to see more CC rig on the water. <br/> cheers hans</p> Hans,
I certainly do not have…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2014-12-15:2195841:Comment:1240922014-12-15T20:15:44.136ZBudget Boaterhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/BudgetBoater
<p>Hans,</p>
<p>I certainly do not have all the answers. However, I have owned, built, crewed, and cruised on a multitude of boats with a variance of rigs:</p>
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<p>Cal 30 (fiberglass): sloop (engineless)</p>
<p>Tayana 37 (fiberglass): custom triple headed cutter</p>
<p>Wharram Tangaroa (plywood): Ketch Cutter (engineless)</p>
<p>Colvin Gazelle (steel): Hasler-McLeod Junk schooner (10hp diesel)</p>
<p>42' Charter Catamaran (plywood): Rotating wing mast sloop</p>
<p>82' Charter Catamaran…</p>
<p>Hans,</p>
<p>I certainly do not have all the answers. However, I have owned, built, crewed, and cruised on a multitude of boats with a variance of rigs:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Cal 30 (fiberglass): sloop (engineless)</p>
<p>Tayana 37 (fiberglass): custom triple headed cutter</p>
<p>Wharram Tangaroa (plywood): Ketch Cutter (engineless)</p>
<p>Colvin Gazelle (steel): Hasler-McLeod Junk schooner (10hp diesel)</p>
<p>42' Charter Catamaran (plywood): Rotating wing mast sloop</p>
<p>82' Charter Catamaran (foam core): Rotating wing mast schooner</p>
<p>90' Charter Catamaran (aluminum): Sloop</p>
<p>30' Baba (fiberglass): Cutter</p>
<p>Tiki 30 (plywood): Wingsail sloop</p>
<p>Morgan 38 (fiberglass): sloop</p>
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<p>I have ridden out heavy weather on a lee shore, hove too, deployed and retrieved a parachute anchor, sailed through dense fog on a lee shore, taken two direct hits from tornadoes while sailing, and suffered through 10 hurricanes while moored. During the delivery of the above Tayana 37, I had to go to the end of the extended bow sprit to retrieve the Yankee, where every wave plunged the lower half of my body under the North Atlantic water in the winter.</p>
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<p>With all of this various experience, I can tell you that I would never intentionally go sailing in heavy weather. And if I somehow find myself on a lee shore in heavy weather, I have made a serious mistake. As for when I plan to put a reef in the sail, I don't plan to do that. I plan to change the sails:</p>
<p>1. point to wind</p>
<p>2. release halyards</p>
<p>3. secure sails in place (main will land on a boomkin.)</p>
<p>4. disconnect sheets and halyards (attached via snap shackles)</p>
<p>5. attach reduced sails (on their own spars) to halyards and sheets</p>
<p>6. raise sails</p>
<p>7. turn to heading and adjust sheets.</p>
<p>This is not much different that dropping the main, and jib, then raising the storm trysail and storm jib on a sloop, which I have done in heavy seas in the Gulf Stream on a monohull, which should be much easier on a catamaran from my experience.</p>
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<p>I am not that familiar with Glenn or his boat. However I am more familiar with Beat and his Tiki 38 Crab Claw rigged <a href="https://alunaboat.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Aluna</a>, which is far more comparable to the Narai in both displacement, length, and anticipated rig design. I have not read much in the way of complaints for his rig, which is little more than $200 white tarps laced to bamboo spars, and he has since crossed the Pacific with it.</p>
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<p>Hans Klar, with whom I believe you are familiar, also seemed to have been successful with his previous Wharram Tehini with a similar Crab Claw Ketch rig.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930099288?profile=original"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930099288?profile=original" width="507"/></a></p>
<p>Wharram also seems to endorse the Crab Claw Ketch rig design as well</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930099478?profile=original"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930099478?profile=original" width="640"/></a></p> BB,
this will not work. i wan…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2014-12-15:2195841:Comment:1240912014-12-15T19:32:55.715Zwakataiteahttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/wakataitea
<p>BB,</p>
<p>this will not work. i want to see you changing a set of sails in strong wind on a moving boat on the ocean. maybe you are traveling with 10 people on board but for 2 or 3 person, that's very very difficult. a 40% smaller sails sounds good up you still have to put the main (big)sail down, rap it up and put on the side and store it away. you have to have the smaller sail already attached to shorter spars.... or do you plan to fidle them on on he way???? it will take you at least 30…</p>
<p>BB,</p>
<p>this will not work. i want to see you changing a set of sails in strong wind on a moving boat on the ocean. maybe you are traveling with 10 people on board but for 2 or 3 person, that's very very difficult. a 40% smaller sails sounds good up you still have to put the main (big)sail down, rap it up and put on the side and store it away. you have to have the smaller sail already attached to shorter spars.... or do you plan to fidle them on on he way???? it will take you at least 30 -40 minutes. you will drift around losing control and being a ping pong in the waves. fighting with all this canvas.</p>
<p>you shoud go out with a boat and change a genua1 against a storm jib in conditions of 20 knots plus....</p>
<p>the problem is, that is CC sails have all the sailarea in the back. if you do not drop it pointing direktly into the wind, it is a hell of a mess on board. you have to have leasy jacks and this will help you only a little.</p>
<p>it will work on a drawing or in the habour. on an ocean crossing you will have big trouble.</p>
<p>it sound for me that you have then only one ref option. that is not much too... don't forget that glenns boat is 30 feet, half the weight and a nut shell against a Narai. his sails are a little bigger then a "blanket".</p>
<p>have you ever though about when you plan to put a ref in a sail? at what strengs of wind. most boat do this at 18 knots (first ref). at 25-30 second. and 35 plus they use strong jibs.</p>
<p>please tell us how you disgn your sail plan to set up the canvas in a way that you still can sail propper.</p>
<p>running downwind with a jib is easy. but sailing in strong conditions and still be able to go windward because the deadly shore is getting closer is a differnet story.</p>
<p>looking forward to read your ideas...</p>
<p> cheers hans</p>