Calico and Manila - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-28T15:13:13Zhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/calico-and-manila?commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A35095&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI have looked deeply into sai…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-18:2195841:Comment:352992011-05-18T16:10:50.500ZGeminidawnhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Geminidawn
<p>I have looked deeply into sailmaking, spent time with many sailmakers and I am farmilliar with the tools and machines of which I have used for covers etc. I am very eager to become more self-reliant by being able to make and repair my own sails but I'll not be starting with high price materials or a wardrobe for the Pahi 63. I'll have to learn to walk before I can run so I'll start with some inexpensive calico and set my sail design and sail making parameters for the smaller craft I have and…</p>
<p>I have looked deeply into sailmaking, spent time with many sailmakers and I am farmilliar with the tools and machines of which I have used for covers etc. I am very eager to become more self-reliant by being able to make and repair my own sails but I'll not be starting with high price materials or a wardrobe for the Pahi 63. I'll have to learn to walk before I can run so I'll start with some inexpensive calico and set my sail design and sail making parameters for the smaller craft I have and see how it goes from there.</p>
<p>I concur with everything Boatsmith and Kim has said and I have that info on the tables of sailcloth and dacron is right in the middle as a safe sound cruising investment for someone who knows what they were doing, but for learning, I think I'll start with something where I know I can afford to make some mistakes. At the same time I want to learn the traditional methods, knowing this will make a good foundation for understanding modern developments.</p> Traditional cloth sails evide…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-18:2195841:Comment:352982011-05-18T15:45:51.158Zkim whitmyrehttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/kimwhitmyre
<p>Traditional cloth sails evidently stretch out rather quickly, from what I've heard. Sailing in a couple of good blows is enough to do it. My new dacron main and jib, on the other hand, should keep their shape for a long time to come.</p>
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<p>As boatsmith intimates above, having good sails, the proper gear to shape them to conditions, and the knowledge to use that gear, will make all the difference in the world. The two gentlemen who went sailing with me to observe the wingsail in the…</p>
<p>Traditional cloth sails evidently stretch out rather quickly, from what I've heard. Sailing in a couple of good blows is enough to do it. My new dacron main and jib, on the other hand, should keep their shape for a long time to come.</p>
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<p>As boatsmith intimates above, having good sails, the proper gear to shape them to conditions, and the knowledge to use that gear, will make all the difference in the world. The two gentlemen who went sailing with me to observe the wingsail in the wind had good things to say about it. One of them had many years ago either built or sailed on a classic Wharram design and was expecting (his words) "a pig-dog" of a boat. He was pleasantly surprised by the responsiveness of the tiki 26. The new sails, and the ability to trim them, had much to do with it. A clean bottom obviously integrates into the overall performance of the boat.</p>
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<p>Different strokes for different folks! I'm not a racer, but I do like to extract all possible performance from the platform.</p> I will weigh in at the other…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-18:2195841:Comment:350622011-05-18T14:58:17.615Zboatsmithhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/qe0j3ojqb10
<p>I will weigh in at the other end of the spectrum. The sails in the photo above are indeed pretty to look at. It ends there for me. I like to sail. I think sailing fast is more fun than sailing slow. I like the skill involved in trimming sails for maximum performance. It is, for most people, understood that Wharram catamarans don't go to weather very well. This has a lot to do with the under water shapes but is also strongly related to the fact that many Wharram sailors are not well skilled…</p>
<p>I will weigh in at the other end of the spectrum. The sails in the photo above are indeed pretty to look at. It ends there for me. I like to sail. I think sailing fast is more fun than sailing slow. I like the skill involved in trimming sails for maximum performance. It is, for most people, understood that Wharram catamarans don't go to weather very well. This has a lot to do with the under water shapes but is also strongly related to the fact that many Wharram sailors are not well skilled in sail trim and are using rigs and sails that are purchased with low cost as the primary factor. Bagged out sails will not take a boat to weather near as well as properly cut and trimmed sails will. Ball bearing blocks certainly cost more but allow for much less friction which allows for easier sail handling and trim. Modern sail cloth holds its' shape much better than cotton or linen or flax ever could. A well made dacron sail will last longer than a cotton sail and provide much better performance than an organic sail throughout its' life. I also really like to trim sails that are made from hi-tech composite material. But the really high performance sails are very short lived because the sails are built so close to the edge in regards to strength/weight that they break down quickly. Manila or hemp rope are indeed cheaper. They also are not as strong, have higher friction, and will rot. If one really likes three strand rope there are synthetic alternatives. If one just plans to shove off and go where ever the wind blows them then it will be downwind and sail shape and trim is not so important. But I sail upwind a fair amount and really appreciate upwind performance. I really like Wharrams, have for 30some years. I also like a sailboat that sails well on all points of sail. Cheap and good are frequently not the same. Wharram lashings are really a cool thing. I don't think that lashing a boat together with hemp will be a suitable long term solution. There will be more stretch, movement and the lines will rot away soon. Hemp lines will frequently rot from the inside out and degradation will not always be readily apparent.</p>
<p>I understand that some folks are building dreams, this I am really into. I guess my dreams are not of an ancient watercraft replica but more of a machine designed and built to perform a set of tasks.</p> Hey Gemini,
Thanks for openin…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-18:2195841:Comment:352952011-05-18T11:25:53.319ZBob Boishttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/BobBois
<p>Hey Gemini,</p>
<p>Thanks for opening this topic up. A big, low-tech, traditionally outfitted Pahi 63 would sure be a sight to see. Those sails in the photo above are beautiful.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Hey Gemini,</p>
<p>Thanks for opening this topic up. A big, low-tech, traditionally outfitted Pahi 63 would sure be a sight to see. Those sails in the photo above are beautiful.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p> I could not find a table like…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-18:2195841:Comment:350572011-05-18T11:13:07.080ZGeminidawnhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Geminidawn
I could not find a table like Kim in my books but as mentioned earlier I do know that hemp is stronger than manila, however it has not got the same marine properties and it is more subject to rot. That is why hemp when used traditionally in a marine environment was tarred, which is extra weight, a higher cost, really messy and hazzardous.
I could not find a table like Kim in my books but as mentioned earlier I do know that hemp is stronger than manila, however it has not got the same marine properties and it is more subject to rot. That is why hemp when used traditionally in a marine environment was tarred, which is extra weight, a higher cost, really messy and hazzardous. Good topic, Geminidawn. I've…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-18:2195841:Comment:350522011-05-18T01:38:23.765ZRandall S Anselmohttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RandallAnselmo
Good topic, Geminidawn. I've been curious about hemp rigging as well (similar to my interest in bamboo applications). Thanks, Kim, for the table of comparative strengths. Do you have any sources of similar info for hemp?
Good topic, Geminidawn. I've been curious about hemp rigging as well (similar to my interest in bamboo applications). Thanks, Kim, for the table of comparative strengths. Do you have any sources of similar info for hemp? Oh not much,none the big blac…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-17:2195841:Comment:350992011-05-17T10:11:30.492ZGeminidawnhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Geminidawn
<p>Oh not much,none the big black tarred turf carriers have made it to the tropics they are open decked local boats. But the local craftsmen have opened my eyes to using alternative or more traditional methods. Even if you use traditional flax and calico you have modern methods of waterproofing and preserving them. The only down side as Ralf pointed out would be the extra weight and maintainance.</p>
<p>I'm just closely looking at sailmaking, starting out with Calico you can afford to make a…</p>
<p>Oh not much,none the big black tarred turf carriers have made it to the tropics they are open decked local boats. But the local craftsmen have opened my eyes to using alternative or more traditional methods. Even if you use traditional flax and calico you have modern methods of waterproofing and preserving them. The only down side as Ralf pointed out would be the extra weight and maintainance.</p>
<p>I'm just closely looking at sailmaking, starting out with Calico you can afford to make a few mistakes, with Dacron you can't.</p>
<p>When I looked into why I could get a full wardrobe of sails out of China for the same price I could just get the materials here I found that the Dacron they use is often factory seconds.</p>
<p>How ever my sails are made I want them to be made with due care and not just for profit, even the locals will not employ a sailmaker that can not visit the boat, or be around to correct any problems after sales.</p> what do the locals say about…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-17:2195841:Comment:349782011-05-17T07:17:50.456Zpaul andersonhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/paulanderson
what do the locals say about the longevity of their calico sails in the tropics gemini?
what do the locals say about the longevity of their calico sails in the tropics gemini? I'm sure there is a hundred a…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-17:2195841:Comment:351892011-05-17T02:15:37.761ZGeminidawnhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Geminidawn
I'm sure there is a hundred arguments for and against. The reason I mention calico is because it's local and cheap and I can get it in a variety of grades as it is what the local traditional sailmakers use here. Dacron on the other hand has to be imported and comes at a huge expense by comparison and any mistakes will be costly. I'm not looking for a die hard traditional finish I'm just looking as to what else can be low - tech and self made. When it comes to maintainance and repair traditional…
I'm sure there is a hundred arguments for and against. The reason I mention calico is because it's local and cheap and I can get it in a variety of grades as it is what the local traditional sailmakers use here. Dacron on the other hand has to be imported and comes at a huge expense by comparison and any mistakes will be costly. I'm not looking for a die hard traditional finish I'm just looking as to what else can be low - tech and self made. When it comes to maintainance and repair traditional materials are far easier and cheaper to come by. I believe you would loose the…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2011-05-17:2195841:Comment:345872011-05-17T01:13:39.314ZRalfhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Ralf
<p>I believe you would loose the aspect of easy maintainance when you go for cotton sails and hemp rope. (btw hemp is stronger and longer lasting than manila) Everything becomes much heavier. Imagine cotton or flax sails getting wet in the rain at sea. Thicker ropes need larger blocks and traditional wooden blocks are heavy anyhow. I also like the appearance of brown sails and hemp colored 3 strand rope but one does not have to go completely traditional for that. I have tanbark dacron sails and…</p>
<p>I believe you would loose the aspect of easy maintainance when you go for cotton sails and hemp rope. (btw hemp is stronger and longer lasting than manila) Everything becomes much heavier. Imagine cotton or flax sails getting wet in the rain at sea. Thicker ropes need larger blocks and traditional wooden blocks are heavy anyhow. I also like the appearance of brown sails and hemp colored 3 strand rope but one does not have to go completely traditional for that. I have tanbark dacron sails and will use Spunflex henp colored 3 strand rope for runing rigging and many other things on board, it looks like hemp but is stronger, lighter and lasts longer. For the structural lashings one must use the modern braided ropes of coursee. see picture here <a href="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/photo/mast16-1?context=user">http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/photo/mast16-1?context=user</a></p>
<p>It is of course not pure but I came to the conclusion that a pure traditional approach does not fit with the Tiki. The boat was not designed for that. </p>
<p>Ralf</p>
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