BUILD TIME ACCURACY OF WHARRAM PLANS - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-29T11:30:48Zhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/build-time-accuracy-of-wharram-plans?commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A83424&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI was thinking about CNC, I h…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-22:2195841:Comment:920252012-12-22T20:16:24.945ZRobert Lusignanhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RobertLusignan
<p>I was thinking about CNC, I have a friend who could set that up for me. I had decided a while ago that making the cuts would be fast and easy for me by hand, and if you have it CNCed ahead of time there is the risk that the pieces don't fit right. If I build, cut each piece one at a time and then dry fit before cutting the other four identical pieces there seems to be a smaller margin of error. In the grand scheme of things it sounds like the cutting is a tiny percentage of the build when…</p>
<p>I was thinking about CNC, I have a friend who could set that up for me. I had decided a while ago that making the cuts would be fast and easy for me by hand, and if you have it CNCed ahead of time there is the risk that the pieces don't fit right. If I build, cut each piece one at a time and then dry fit before cutting the other four identical pieces there seems to be a smaller margin of error. In the grand scheme of things it sounds like the cutting is a tiny percentage of the build when compared to the epoxying and fileting. I would be very interested in building a small Wharram, or a nice little tender this year, and see where Kris and I are at in Spring of 2014.</p>
<p> To everyone who is giving us input, THANK YOU. There is a lot of good, logical information in this thread, now (as well as some illogical, emotional and passionate dreamings of warmer climates, blue water and palm trees. TY!)</p> I know wharrams thinks its go…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-22:2195841:Comment:918882012-12-22T18:00:53.146ZAlexhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/atkins196Alexatkins
I know wharrams thinks its good for you to cut your own ply... But would cnc cutting be an option for many as a small addition to speeding up the process?
I know wharrams thinks its good for you to cut your own ply... But would cnc cutting be an option for many as a small addition to speeding up the process? As a starter project/learning…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-22:2195841:Comment:921912012-12-22T11:12:27.058ZAlexhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/atkins196Alexatkins
As a starter project/learning experience, start with a tender for the bigger project? It will give you some experience of epoxy and ply building and you will also see if you like it or not.<br />
One of the advantages of building is the ability to buy as you build, thereby breaking up the expenses into smaller monthly amounts - for those who can't fork out the whole amount in one go for a secondhand boat.<br />
Customising is another plus - as most seem to want something different .... Or is that a…
As a starter project/learning experience, start with a tender for the bigger project? It will give you some experience of epoxy and ply building and you will also see if you like it or not.<br />
One of the advantages of building is the ability to buy as you build, thereby breaking up the expenses into smaller monthly amounts - for those who can't fork out the whole amount in one go for a secondhand boat.<br />
Customising is another plus - as most seem to want something different .... Or is that a negative? Wonderful replies guys.
Boat…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-22:2195841:Comment:919862012-12-22T02:50:54.718ZGalway Bayhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/GalwayBay
<p>Wonderful replies guys.</p>
<p> Boat building is a totally absorbing hobby. As such it brings it's own rewards. Many are the hours I have spent sighting along a board visualising it slicing through the sea as a kayak or in a wild surf down a winter breaker on our west coast.</p>
<p>So much so that I no longer draw any of my small craft / kayaks / surfskis. I cut the main panels [ the ones I judge to determine the qualities of the finished craft ] prop them in place [ by eye ] and fill in…</p>
<p>Wonderful replies guys.</p>
<p> Boat building is a totally absorbing hobby. As such it brings it's own rewards. Many are the hours I have spent sighting along a board visualising it slicing through the sea as a kayak or in a wild surf down a winter breaker on our west coast.</p>
<p>So much so that I no longer draw any of my small craft / kayaks / surfskis. I cut the main panels [ the ones I judge to determine the qualities of the finished craft ] prop them in place [ by eye ] and fill in between by offering-up and marking - always with an eye to the clean flow of the lines.</p>
<p>This has worked well enough to win me some impressive prizes [ Well I was impressed ] but has eff-all to with this discussion.</p>
<p>However many people ask my advice on building a boat.</p>
<p>Advice I give to people who wish to build is -- NO -- Dont do it. </p>
<p>If you want a SUPER HOBBY build a boat but if you want to GO SAILING think again.</p>
<p>This is craft/ trade work and if you are not experienced you will be learning -on -the-job. This is slow. It is a wonderful and rewarding experience but if your goal is to GO SAILING in say two / three years you should look very carefully at what you are commiting yourself to.</p>
<p>There is a lot of learning in boat-building. This is also what makes it such an absorbing hobby. I break this process down [ roughly ] as follows</p>
<p>1. First boat takes 2x times too long and costs 2x as much as it needs to because you do EVERYTHING perfect. Nothing wrong with the boat and immense satisfaction in it's completion but instead of GOING SAILING life has passed you by and you are now in a new job / house / relationship and have other plans.</p>
<p>2 Second boat - learning from your mistakes you use ALL the shortcuts /money-savers you learned on build one. This will be the one !!!</p>
<p>Unfortunately because you are still learning it still takes longer than you hoped still costs more than you hoped and because you took ALL the shortcuts the finished product is a heap of ++it.</p>
<p>3 boat three - finally you are in with a fighting chance. You take SOME of the shortcuts pay attention where you need to and dont sweat the small stuff. You might do OK.</p>
<p>If you do there is no hope for you. You are now addicted to something stronger than HEROIN.</p>
<p>This is a true story. This is the story of my life.</p>
<p>And I do'nt regret a day of it.</p>
<p> </p> Lee hit it right on! A labou…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-22:2195841:Comment:919962012-12-22T00:38:27.212ZThomas Nielsenhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/ThomasNielsen
<p>Lee hit it right on! A labour of love is what boat building is when it's for oneself. The first thing I did after building my building shed was to make a place for safely setting down my cup of coffee or tea dependent on the time of day or the end of the day bottle of beer. Always start and finish in contemplation. Eventually I added a chair so I could be at the right stance to enjoy the curves. Afterall few of us set forth in our selected ship of dreams to earn a living from plying the…</p>
<p>Lee hit it right on! A labour of love is what boat building is when it's for oneself. The first thing I did after building my building shed was to make a place for safely setting down my cup of coffee or tea dependent on the time of day or the end of the day bottle of beer. Always start and finish in contemplation. Eventually I added a chair so I could be at the right stance to enjoy the curves. Afterall few of us set forth in our selected ship of dreams to earn a living from plying the waters. It's not fish, plunder or cargo we are after, it's dreams that we be dream'n </p> No amount of planning will al…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-21:2195841:Comment:919952012-12-21T23:31:58.472ZLee Dilkeshttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/LeeDilkes
<p>No amount of planning will allow for the fact "It will take as long as it takes" this is not a production boat it is an expression of self.</p>
<p>Mr Murphy will interfere some where along the way so just enjoy the build process and learn from it. </p>
<p>So don't take short cuts, do it once, do it properly and pay someone to do or teach the things that are beyond your ability.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I do this sort of stuff for a living so am used to quoting jobs and with that said 3 deadlines have…</p>
<p>No amount of planning will allow for the fact "It will take as long as it takes" this is not a production boat it is an expression of self.</p>
<p>Mr Murphy will interfere some where along the way so just enjoy the build process and learn from it. </p>
<p>So don't take short cuts, do it once, do it properly and pay someone to do or teach the things that are beyond your ability.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I do this sort of stuff for a living so am used to quoting jobs and with that said 3 deadlines have passed already, see the Murphy line above......</p>
<p></p>
<p>There's nothing nicer than kicking back with a bevvie of your choice after a hard day at it and dreaming my friends.</p> One thing to add to Thomas' c…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-21:2195841:Comment:918762012-12-21T17:16:47.344ZRobert Hugheshttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RobertHughes
<p>One thing to add to Thomas' comment about "what isn't included is the thinking and head scratching in between times or the doubling back time" :-</p>
<p>If you're anything like me you'll also have to allow for "admiring and dreaming time". This is where you stand back and look at the bit you've just built, or daydeam about what you'll be doing after it's all finished. A particularly vulnerable time for this is when you've turned a hull over and can properly appreciate its lines for the…</p>
<p>One thing to add to Thomas' comment about "what isn't included is the thinking and head scratching in between times or the doubling back time" :-</p>
<p>If you're anything like me you'll also have to allow for "admiring and dreaming time". This is where you stand back and look at the bit you've just built, or daydeam about what you'll be doing after it's all finished. A particularly vulnerable time for this is when you've turned a hull over and can properly appreciate its lines for the first time. Equally when you've built something like a tiller, you might prop the back end up on something and sit holding it, imagining you're steering. Lots of folks won't admit it, but I bet most of us have done it when nobody's looking...</p>
<p>The same thing happens the first time you assemble the boat. You'll sit there in the cockpit or a hatchway, imagining the sea is around you (not just grass or concrete). You'll think about the wind filling the sails and dream of crystal clear blue water and sandy beaches.</p>
<p>Professional boatbuilders don't have this problem, which is one reason why they build boats more quickly !!</p>
<p></p> Things to think about when yo…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-21:2195841:Comment:920912012-12-21T15:10:36.251ZThomas Nielsenhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/ThomasNielsen
<p>Things to think about when you are planning your build</p>
<ol>
<li>Distance from where you live to where you build</li>
<li>Distance to suppliers of materials</li>
<li>Do you have a building shed or do you have to build that first</li>
<li>Previous experience with reading plans</li>
<li>Previous experience with using tools</li>
<li>Previous experience with the materials</li>
<li>Have you been to the school of hard knocks and did you pay attention and study</li>
<li>Help - will the help of…</li>
</ol>
<p>Things to think about when you are planning your build</p>
<ol>
<li>Distance from where you live to where you build</li>
<li>Distance to suppliers of materials</li>
<li>Do you have a building shed or do you have to build that first</li>
<li>Previous experience with reading plans</li>
<li>Previous experience with using tools</li>
<li>Previous experience with the materials</li>
<li>Have you been to the school of hard knocks and did you pay attention and study</li>
<li>Help - will the help of others actually slow you down because you get into conversations about boats and sailing or perhaps even discussions about the Wharram way, a better way or The Right Way.</li>
<li>Experience in planning work - epoxy needs time to cure. If you glue some piece of work up early in the work session will that end the day's advancement on that part of boat building?</li>
<li>Do you have the space and where with all to work on multiple parts at the same time so that you don't glue yourself into a corner (see 9 above).</li>
<li>Short cuts and it's good enough - these will keep you wondering later while on the water in rough conditions when the boat is straining sea against your boats momentum as to "was it good enough?)</li>
<li>Are you prepared to protect your health (from dust, epoxy, solvents, physical duress of moving heavy and cumbersome piece of material etc) so that when you are done you are ready to go enjoy the sailing. It is distressing to think how many builders do not truly protect themselves from the industrial processes and come out in the end with illnesses.</li>
</ol>
<p></p> Thank you Thomas for a wonder…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-21:2195841:Comment:918752012-12-21T11:41:29.822ZGalway Bayhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/GalwayBay
<p>Thank you Thomas for a wonderful reply.</p>
<p>Organisation/management are an essential part of a job which the amateur overlooks. Contractors have to price this into every job. For a general contractor a unit of 3 men is often economic ie. contractor employs one tradesman and one assistant. This is worth thinking about - it suggests that every 16 hours labour generates 8 hours of management. This time is spent "servicing the site"as we call it - breaking the job into an ordered list of…</p>
<p>Thank you Thomas for a wonderful reply.</p>
<p>Organisation/management are an essential part of a job which the amateur overlooks. Contractors have to price this into every job. For a general contractor a unit of 3 men is often economic ie. contractor employs one tradesman and one assistant. This is worth thinking about - it suggests that every 16 hours labour generates 8 hours of management. This time is spent "servicing the site"as we call it - breaking the job into an ordered list of tasks, arranging deliveries, talking to customers +++.</p>
<p>Many of us have no experience of this. Only a small number of people are truly good at it. It is the difference between the common disorganised tradesman and the few who can "grow" a business.</p>
<p>If you have experience of this, perhaps building your house by direct labour or similar, or it is what you do for a living, you have a headstart.</p>
<p>We tend to view carpentry etc. skills as the big thing to have. In fact you will do very little "fine carpentry". You should expect a massive amount of drudgery.</p>
<p>There are many who build as "DIY on the heroic scale". Not all of us will go to sea for any lenght of time. Some will day-sail or trailer their creation to boat-shows. These people also we value.</p>
<p>However the person who is going sailing will make a completely different set of priorities/decisions starting perhaps in the present climate by deciding to buy a used boat...</p> The Tiki 26 was suppose to ta…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2012-12-21:2195841:Comment:918742012-12-21T05:12:06.521ZThomas Nielsenhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/ThomasNielsen
<p>The Tiki 26 was suppose to take 700 hours to build. I had a plan, a schedule and lists. It took me approx. 1450 hours over 9 months to launch and I had thought I'd be in the water by late spring. I built it in my backyard so no commute time to the yard. I had sold my monohull for enough for materials and to live off of so while I worked on the boat, I wasn't "gainfully" employed. Fresh at it every day not tired after a day of work. I worked around the clock to keep up with or ahead of…</p>
<p>The Tiki 26 was suppose to take 700 hours to build. I had a plan, a schedule and lists. It took me approx. 1450 hours over 9 months to launch and I had thought I'd be in the water by late spring. I built it in my backyard so no commute time to the yard. I had sold my monohull for enough for materials and to live off of so while I worked on the boat, I wasn't "gainfully" employed. Fresh at it every day not tired after a day of work. I worked around the clock to keep up with or ahead of the curing of epoxy. Length of boat isn't the issue, it's volume so the bigger the boat I'd have to say time is not linear, it's not square but it is cubed. Bigger boats also weigh more so you can't move them by hand easily. Unless you have a big crew, you'll need some bigger tools like a forklift for when you flip hulls over. How high is it up to the deck? It's amazing how much time you can spend going up and down ladders. Another big factor is what you know. Do the tools fit your hands? Are they familiar or out of the box or from a garage sale/craigslist and you're picking them up for the first time. Building a boat is life altering event but it isn't sailing if that's what you are after. Buying a used boat is a good idea if being on the blue is what you are after. Wharram is probably right with his building time estimates but what isn't included is the thinking and head scratching in between times or the doubling back time. Those are the extras!</p>