A note on Plywood - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-28T13:03:33Zhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/a-note-on-plywood?commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A109636&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Geminidawn
Much appreciat…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-07:2195841:Comment:1096382013-11-07T07:29:19.536ZPeter Brookhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/PeterBrook
<p>Hi Geminidawn</p>
<p></p>
<p>Much appreciate the information. Please feel free to PM me with any further Philippines specific information. I have contact details for Santa Clara ply in North Luzon. I am sure Twin Aces will be fine, but I will investigate prices when I get started (should be July/August 2014). Again, any contact details will be a big help.</p>
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<p>Is EMCO the company producing Tuffply? I understood it was unavailable for a while, but is now available again within…</p>
<p>Hi Geminidawn</p>
<p></p>
<p>Much appreciate the information. Please feel free to PM me with any further Philippines specific information. I have contact details for Santa Clara ply in North Luzon. I am sure Twin Aces will be fine, but I will investigate prices when I get started (should be July/August 2014). Again, any contact details will be a big help.</p>
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<p>Is EMCO the company producing Tuffply? I understood it was unavailable for a while, but is now available again within Metro Manila (although we are Cagayan Valley, we travel toManila/Subic Bay area quite frequently).</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thanks of the advice re importing sailing gear. Anything small enough to travel via luggage is no problem as I will travel to and from the UK for a good few years yet. Balikbayan boxes will be a possibility for larger ties. One of the reasons for deciding on a Wharram was to reduce the number of higher tech items/materials as I know they will be difficult to source in the Philippines. That said, elements of the design and overall philosophy also appeal!</p>
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<p>Many thanks again, and stay in touch. It looks like I will really appreciate continued local advice!!</p>
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<p>Best regards</p>
<p></p>
<p>Peter drpeter.brook at gmail.com for PM</p> Hi Peter,
I'm in the Philippi…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-07:2195841:Comment:1095602013-11-07T01:42:13.650ZGeminidawnhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Geminidawn
<p>Hi Peter,</p>
<p>I'm in the Philippines and the Ply I use is Santa Clara, it's the best marine ply I can get around here but now their logging licence has expired and the price of their ply has gone through the roof! There is another company down in Mindano called EMCO and they are supposedly resuming production of BS1088 in January 2014.</p>
<p>As regards to epoxy there is a good local laminating epoxy here formulated by a company called Twin Aces but it does not have any class certificate,…</p>
<p>Hi Peter,</p>
<p>I'm in the Philippines and the Ply I use is Santa Clara, it's the best marine ply I can get around here but now their logging licence has expired and the price of their ply has gone through the roof! There is another company down in Mindano called EMCO and they are supposedly resuming production of BS1088 in January 2014.</p>
<p>As regards to epoxy there is a good local laminating epoxy here formulated by a company called Twin Aces but it does not have any class certificate, if you want to go for something recognised by IACS you can get EPOLAM (imported from France) in Manila. It's certified by Lloyd's but you'll pay for it.</p>
<p>Get what gear you can at home and send it to your friends or family here in a Balikbayan box. Buying sailing gear here, including Broadwater Marine you'll 200-300% more on import duties.</p> Hi Shaun
Really appreciate t…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-06:2195841:Comment:1096362013-11-06T20:42:17.542ZPeter Brookhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/PeterBrook
<p>Hi Shaun</p>
<p></p>
<p>Really appreciate the information. There are problems importing to the Philippines, but we do have a chandlery group (Broadwater Marine) that have strong links with Australia and might well be able to add Bote Cote to their list of products. They can have more success than individuals with avoiding import problems. None of us mind paying appropriate taxes, but it is the "extras" required to release your good that can be a problem (although there seem to be recent…</p>
<p>Hi Shaun</p>
<p></p>
<p>Really appreciate the information. There are problems importing to the Philippines, but we do have a chandlery group (Broadwater Marine) that have strong links with Australia and might well be able to add Bote Cote to their list of products. They can have more success than individuals with avoiding import problems. None of us mind paying appropriate taxes, but it is the "extras" required to release your good that can be a problem (although there seem to be recent improvements in dealing with graft/corruption).</p>
<p></p>
<p>Best regards</p>
<p></p>
<p>Peter</p> There have been different var…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-06:2195841:Comment:1095592013-11-06T19:37:28.162ZShaunhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Shaun
There have been different variants of the same principle regarding the epoxy/copper mix, I have no idea how Bruce put this one together however the results in Australia have been outstanding.<br />
<br />
The literature does state that in some high pollution/nutrient conditions that it may need an ablative over coating.<br />
<br />
Years ago when talking with the developer I asked about the life expectancy of Cop-r-cote and at that stage a timber working boat in tropical North Queensland had been using it for 10 or…
There have been different variants of the same principle regarding the epoxy/copper mix, I have no idea how Bruce put this one together however the results in Australia have been outstanding.<br />
<br />
The literature does state that in some high pollution/nutrient conditions that it may need an ablative over coating.<br />
<br />
Years ago when talking with the developer I asked about the life expectancy of Cop-r-cote and at that stage a timber working boat in tropical North Queensland had been using it for 10 or more years and it was still working well without an ablative coating.<br />
<br />
I guess my point is that along with the many formulations of epoxy resins resides the offshoots of those resins and their performance records will vary widely depending circumstances.<br />
<br />
Cheers,<br />
Shaun Peace IV experience with copp…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-06:2195841:Comment:1093872013-11-06T18:11:33.956ZAnn and Neville Clementhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/AnnandNevilleClement922
<p>Peace IV experience with copper powder in epoxy:</p>
<p> We got lots of compensation when things went wrong with some paint product we bought and had to sand it all off because it was wrong. For apology, they gave us a whole lot of something called Copperbot which was copper powder in epoxy and we put several coats of the stuff on the bottom carefully following all the instructions. It simply did not work and several friends have had that same experience. We did sand it and we did…</p>
<p>Peace IV experience with copper powder in epoxy:</p>
<p> We got lots of compensation when things went wrong with some paint product we bought and had to sand it all off because it was wrong. For apology, they gave us a whole lot of something called Copperbot which was copper powder in epoxy and we put several coats of the stuff on the bottom carefully following all the instructions. It simply did not work and several friends have had that same experience. We did sand it and we did everything carefully as per directions. It failed as antifouling. However, it makes an excellent barrer coat so we use ablative antifouling on top and do not fear when it gets worn in places because that copper barrier coat is right there for us. The ablative bottom paint sticks to it just fine after a light sand. But do not count on the copper powder in epoxy except as barrier coat. It is heavy, costly, and does not work in our experience.</p> Hey there Peter,
Get in touch…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-06:2195841:Comment:1095542013-11-06T16:33:37.982ZShaunhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Shaun
Hey there Peter,<br></br>
Get in touch with Boat Craft Pacific, Loganholme, Brisbane, Australia, they formulated an epoxy called bote-cote. It is 100% water proof, all solids, amine free, they have the whole range of products to complete a boat. Obviously the epoxy glue, TPRDA (timber preservative and reactive diluent agent), aqua coat top coat, cop-r-cote anti fouling, all timbers and hardwares and the best part, for me at least, any epoxy that gets on your skin will wash off with warm soap and…
Hey there Peter,<br/>
Get in touch with Boat Craft Pacific, Loganholme, Brisbane, Australia, they formulated an epoxy called bote-cote. It is 100% water proof, all solids, amine free, they have the whole range of products to complete a boat. Obviously the epoxy glue, TPRDA (timber preservative and reactive diluent agent), aqua coat top coat, cop-r-cote anti fouling, all timbers and hardwares and the best part, for me at least, any epoxy that gets on your skin will wash off with warm soap and water!<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://Www.boatcraft.com.au" target="_blank">Www.boatcraft.com.au</a>, not sure how delivery would work to the phillipines, it may be worth investigating.<br />
Cheers,<br />
Shaun Although in the UK currently,…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-06:2195841:Comment:1095472013-11-06T13:52:05.985ZPeter Brookhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/PeterBrook
<p>Although in the UK currently, my build will be the Philippines. Despite "Far East" marine ply being readily available in the UK, in the Philippines there are only 3 main sources of local marine ply, one of whom currently is not manufacturing/supplying. Advice from local builders there, they say exactly the same as Nev and Ann - do not always believe the label, inspect and even boil cycle test samples.</p>
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<p>What is readily available is "marine plywood" from China. Problem is,…</p>
<p>Although in the UK currently, my build will be the Philippines. Despite "Far East" marine ply being readily available in the UK, in the Philippines there are only 3 main sources of local marine ply, one of whom currently is not manufacturing/supplying. Advice from local builders there, they say exactly the same as Nev and Ann - do not always believe the label, inspect and even boil cycle test samples.</p>
<p></p>
<p>What is readily available is "marine plywood" from China. Problem is, ordering is only in bulk and sustainability os not assured. Also there can be difficulty importing in the Philippines. If it is rubbish, would not be easy to send back either!</p>
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<p>Hopefully, I can find a reliable supplier of a reasonable quality marine ply by next July!!</p>
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<p>Next problem will be sourcing epoxy that is amine blush free and not awash with thinners. At least remaining lumber is OK to source.....</p> Gemini Dawn, This is an extr…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-06:2195841:Comment:1094822013-11-06T12:19:57.115ZAnn and Neville Clementhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/AnnandNevilleClement922
<p>Gemini Dawn, This is an extremely important article you have written. I offer our experience to back up what you say.</p>
<p>We bought what we thought was top quality marine grade ply in Britain from a top timber merchant and then found that what we got was delaminating in the building shed so we had to scrap our first lower hulls and start all over. As you might expect, I was pretty mad because the Tiki 46 lower hulls were big and a lot of work and it was a hard time ahead for us. We…</p>
<p>Gemini Dawn, This is an extremely important article you have written. I offer our experience to back up what you say.</p>
<p>We bought what we thought was top quality marine grade ply in Britain from a top timber merchant and then found that what we got was delaminating in the building shed so we had to scrap our first lower hulls and start all over. As you might expect, I was pretty mad because the Tiki 46 lower hulls were big and a lot of work and it was a hard time ahead for us. We got compensated but it was hard going and depressing in the extreme to have to begin again. </p>
<p>As it says above "NOT ALL PLY IS WHAT IT IS LABELED". After that awful experience we inspected our ply very carefully throughout the build. When you are coating your ply you can look across the wetted surface and see any raised areas indicating overlaps. When you cut your ply pieces, look at all the edges to see voids or overlaps. All the time look to see that the glue between laminates is actually holding the laminates together. Our first bad ply had missing glue in some places and in other places the glue had cured before the ply was pressed together because with our bad ply you could tear it apart with your fingers. We had a real lesson in how bad ply can be and still carry the fancy sticker which meant nothing in our case. We hope all builders will learn from our experience. </p>
<p>We know that Peace is built from all good ply - top of the line marine grade ply because after our bad experience, when we started over, we inspected and inspected and inspected. It is your boat you are building. It is your life out on the ocean. INSPECT and if you find some bad ply, take it back to your timber merchant and he will replace it for you and it is a good thing for him to learn about his supplier. Epoxy on the outside cannot fix glue problems between the laminates. </p>
<p>On a happier note, we are again cruising south in Peace and all is well. Nev tells me we have sailed over 50,000 miles so far. We will be repainting the decks in Bahamas and the topsides in Cape Cod next summer. Even needing paint, she is still turning heads in any anchorage and serving us well.</p>
<p>So INSPECT YOUR PLY</p>
<p>Ann and Nev</p> This is clearly implied, but…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-11-05:2195841:Comment:1094492013-11-05T00:03:19.209Zrob lionhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/roblion
<p>This is clearly implied, but does this apply to vacuum bagged hulls as well?</p>
<p>In my experience, the epoxy saturates the cell structure better, and applying glass over the final structure greatly improves even WBP ply immensely. Would it be possible to use WBP for above the waterline, especially for a double laminate?</p>
<p>Not saying it is a substitute for marine ply, completely</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Only curious, as someone pointed out, the ply isn't the major expense in the end.</p>
<p>This is clearly implied, but does this apply to vacuum bagged hulls as well?</p>
<p>In my experience, the epoxy saturates the cell structure better, and applying glass over the final structure greatly improves even WBP ply immensely. Would it be possible to use WBP for above the waterline, especially for a double laminate?</p>
<p>Not saying it is a substitute for marine ply, completely</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Only curious, as someone pointed out, the ply isn't the major expense in the end.</p> Buy the best, in my tiki 30 p…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2013-09-02:2195841:Comment:1063002013-09-02T22:13:22.081ZRogerio Martinhttps://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerioMartin
<p>Buy the best, in my tiki 30 ply represent only 8% of all cost, was a WBP canadian pine</p>
<p>Buy the best, in my tiki 30 ply represent only 8% of all cost, was a WBP canadian pine</p>