Wingsail Rigs- A nightmare in the Rain?

[Geminidawn]

As you guys can see by the latest photos the masts are almost complete. I just had a visit to the yard from a guy that knows a lot about everything. He asked what kind of tracks I'm putting on them, I said none and explained that I'll be using a wingsail that incorporates a 4ft pocket that wraps around the mast. "Oh dear!" was his reply, when I asked why he said that due to surface tension they are almost impossible to reef in when they're wet as the sleeve just clings to the mast. In theory I can see where he's coming from. But I'm wondering if any of you wingsail rig owners have had any experience of this?

[Tam Dl]

Ann, on your laced sails, are you using a flat cut sail?  I gather they were adapted from the regular Wharram cut wing sails, and those are flat I believe.  Always wondered.

GD, have you looked at Bolger's rig book?  He specified many old rigs on his boats and describes a method of lacing that goes up loose, but ends up tight.  For all I know it is the standard method.  Anyway, with that method, the sail sits right against the spar, and pulls to the low pressure side, in many ways giving a clean air flow around the low pressure side of the sail. 

It would seem there would be a benefit of having several sails available if the storage existed. 

[Robert Hughes]

Tam makes a very good point about the sail pulling to the low pressure side.  As long as the gap isn't too big a lacing or rings ought to be more efficient than a modern yacht mast with a luff track.

Another alternative is to use separate lacings with parrel beads, which have been around for hundreds of years.  They go up and down very easily and you can make them as tight or loose as you want.

[Andrés]

Here are some pictures of a Tiki 21 that it is used for charter. I don't remember why he changed the wing sail for lashings, perhaps the old sail was worn and it is difficult to get a Wharram wing sail in my country so he adapted a conventional sail, but I think he was happy with the new arrangement.

[Maxim Jurgens]

On our tiki rigged wharrams ( tiki 30's and sloop rigged Tiki 38 with boom)  we have always had a down haul line attached to  the front of the gaff. Also, to reduce friction ,and it does help a lot , we run the halyards outside the sock (sleeve) rather then in. We never have experienced any problems lowering the sails, if anything to the contrary.

Re fears for the strength of the zipper in the sleeve: rather then swtiching to loops or lacings why not reinforce the area of where the zip is and press in eyelets parallel to the zip . Trough this a ,say, 6 mm rope can be lashed . This could be done as a repair in case the zip has failed or as a means of strengthening the zip if you are worried about it's strength.

[Marty Peters]

I have been having a much easier time on reefing recently once I realised that the main issue on my tiki 46 is the triple purchase on the gaff haliards. This obviously makes raising the sail very easy but when pulling the sail down you are effectively pulling against or the wrong way against a 3 to 1 purchase. If there is ANY friction or tangles on the haliards it makes it nearly impossible to pull against. My tiki 30 also had a triple purchase on the haliards but I never really had this problem.
Next time up the mast to check everything I'll be changing to a single or possible double purchase and see how that works, I expect it will make raising the sails harder but lowering/reefing should be much easier...

Marty

[Robert]

I agree with Russell and Janet,
I'm Very Leary of people and sailors who know a lot about everything!!
I've been sailing for 50 years this year from sunfishes to the 1988 Americas cup cat,and can promise you I learn something new every time I bring the anchor up.:)

[Tam Dl]

Lashed sails are designed for tapered masts in addition to other options  so if they are properly set up, they should come down very easily one a straight tapered mast.

What you can see in the first pic is a spiral lacing where the sail is attached by a continuous spiral of rope.  To make this work on a tapered mast it will often be loose, because to bring it down, you need to have slack so  that the whole thing can ride on the fatter sections at the base of the mast.  But even with straight masts the loops will probably not be all that tight.  And some special steps will be required to reef this set-up.

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/mast-lacing.gif

With loop lashings, what you are looking at between the grommets is a single loop that has been adjusted to fit the mast perfectly, it is tight, only when the sail is raised (or the luff is tensioned while reefed).  So when the sail is dropped the loops become extremely loose and there is no hang on the mast.  The secondary benefit is that the luff of the sail is very well connected to the spar, though it is still free to move to the windward side for a cleaner flow.

http://www.eskimo.com/~mdevour/other_pictures/lufflacing.jpg

[Tam Dl]

Correction:  both methods have lots of slack when dropped the loops space the slack and have a few other advantages.

[Robert]

Think you mean leeward side for better flow if not ????

Tam Dl said:

Lashed sails are designed for tapered masts in addition to other options  so if they are properly set up, they should come down very easily one a straight tapered mast.

What you can see in the first pic is a spiral lacing where the sail is attached by a continuous spiral of rope.  To make this work on a tapered mast it will often be loose, because to bring it down, you need to have slack so  that the whole thing can ride on the fatter sections at the base of the mast.  But even with straight masts the loops will probably not be all that tight.  And some special steps will be required to reef this set-up.

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/mast-lacing.gif

With loop lashings, what you are looking at between the grommets is a single loop that has been adjusted to fit the mast perfectly, it is tight, only when the sail is raised (or the luff is tensioned while reefed).  So when the sail is dropped the loops become extremely loose and there is no hang on the mast.  The secondary benefit is that the luff of the sail is very well connected to the spar, though it is still free to move to the windward side for a cleaner flow.

http://www.eskimo.com/~mdevour/other_pictures/lufflacing.jpg

[Norm van't Hoff]

Alf Bangert said:

We've cruised our Tiki 38 "Kattu" from Victoria, Canada, to Banderas Bay on the Pacific coast of Mexico (where we arrived two weeks ago) and got LOTS of reefing practice on the way with an almost ridiculous amount of gales and worse! I never noticed any difference whether the sail was wet or dry when dousing/reefing.  There is very little friction between the sleeve and the mast, assuming the mast is nice and smooth!  Jacques is right on about the gaff pressing against the shrouds going downwind,  and that is the same wet or dry.  I find the gaffs need vangs....not really optional,  otherwise there can be a lot of chafe where the gaffs rub against those shrouds.  Not good for either!

It's handy to have one crew control the vang while the sail is being hoisted, reefed, or lowered,  to keep the gaff clear of the standing rigging.  And,  there is a definite advantage to being able to haul that gaff to near centerline when going to windward.  I just use a single 6mm line from the end of the gaff which is moved from one side of the boat to the other as needed.  A bit of a nuisance short tacking,  but hardly a problem offshore.

-Alf

I'v recently bought a Tiki 38', now sailing in the Philippines. A vang on the gaff! I've been worried about chaffing on the shrouds. Great idea! Many thanks.