looking for a way to improve upwind sailing. - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-28T18:36:51Zhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/looking-for-a-way-to-improve-upwind-sailing?commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A145258&feed=yes&xn_auth=noTime for a little update.
Th…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2017-08-10:2195841:Comment:1544892017-08-10T10:56:57.741ZBarthttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Bart
<p>Time for a little update.</p>
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<p>This summer i sailed with a clean bottom, i used a copper and epoxy mixture as antifouling and i got only slight growth, witch was easy to remove when on a beach.</p>
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<p>I also put the hulls parralel. The distance between te hulls front was 5 cm less than at the rear! The reult of quick beam mount repairs while in the water?</p>
<p>The results of this was indeed much improved speed, now i am sailing often wind speeds in knots\2.. i go…</p>
<p>Time for a little update.</p>
<p></p>
<p>This summer i sailed with a clean bottom, i used a copper and epoxy mixture as antifouling and i got only slight growth, witch was easy to remove when on a beach.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I also put the hulls parralel. The distance between te hulls front was 5 cm less than at the rear! The reult of quick beam mount repairs while in the water?</p>
<p>The results of this was indeed much improved speed, now i am sailing often wind speeds in knots\2.. i go often 10 knots+ with 18- 24 knots wind. Witch i find great!</p>
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<p>The sailing angles improved just a bit. learning the traveller without a boom takes some time, but i think the main sail is not flat enough. I mailed the pictures of the main to jeckels, and they thought it was fuller than it was made.</p>
<p>I have to keep on sailing and practising, and perhaps a new main sail later on..</p>
<p>For now i am pleased with al the tips and ideas, Thank you all!</p>
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<p>Regards Bart</p>
<p></p> "I wonder also if cats' polar…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-10-06:2195841:Comment:1456342016-10-06T18:58:19.733ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p><span><em>"I wonder also if cats' polar plots mean they increase their VMG to windward more quickly when they come off the wind than do many monohulls. Hence the monohulls see cats pulling away from them, but further off the wind than their own course.</em>"</span></p>
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<p><span>I think that is true for fast cats footing to windward (beach cats and performance multi's with tall rigs and boards), but Wharrams are slow cats and vmg has to be a balance between angle to the wind and…</span></p>
<p><span><em>"I wonder also if cats' polar plots mean they increase their VMG to windward more quickly when they come off the wind than do many monohulls. Hence the monohulls see cats pulling away from them, but further off the wind than their own course.</em>"</span></p>
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<p><span>I think that is true for fast cats footing to windward (beach cats and performance multi's with tall rigs and boards), but Wharrams are slow cats and vmg has to be a balance between angle to the wind and adequate speed to minimize lee way. <br/></span></p>
<p><span>If we are talking about close reaching wind angles, then I think you are right that a wharram sailing at speed can beat a bigger mono sailing a tighter angle at hull speed.</span></p>
<p></p> Hey, Roger that's interesting…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-10-06:2195841:Comment:1457292016-10-06T18:14:18.244ZIan Bamseyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/IanBamsey
<p>Hey, Roger that's interesting stuff and it's clear you're doing well to windward. I met Rory not long after I made the post about the angles and he confirmed the 90<span>° tacks against true wind.</span></p>
<p><span>It's becoming clear to me that windward ability (and speed at any point of sail) is really sensitive to small changes in the boat set up and the skill of the sailor (or lack of in my case). I get the impression that this might be particularly true of catamarans and hence the…</span></p>
<p>Hey, Roger that's interesting stuff and it's clear you're doing well to windward. I met Rory not long after I made the post about the angles and he confirmed the 90<span>° tacks against true wind.</span></p>
<p><span>It's becoming clear to me that windward ability (and speed at any point of sail) is really sensitive to small changes in the boat set up and the skill of the sailor (or lack of in my case). I get the impression that this might be particularly true of catamarans and hence the reputation. I wonder also if cats' polar plots mean they increase their VMG to windward more quickly when they come off the wind than do many monohulls. Hence the monohulls see cats pulling away from them, but further off the wind than their own course.</span></p>
<p><span>Gratitude will be coming out of the water soon. As you can see from the last weekend's track, I'll have to wait until next spring to see if I can catch up with you and Rory!</span></p>
<p><span><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104533?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="500" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104533?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="374" class="align-left" height="589"/></a></span></p> Sorry, the boat is moving fro…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-10-06:2195841:Comment:1458332016-10-06T17:29:10.888ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>Sorry, the boat is moving from the right to the left, into the Bay.</p>
<p>Sorry, the boat is moving from the right to the left, into the Bay.</p> Ian. Here is Little Cat yeste…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-10-06:2195841:Comment:1457272016-10-06T17:11:11.741ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>Ian. Here is <em>Little Cat</em> yesterday after I turned her to tack directly into the wind in San Quentin Bay (moving from left to right).At the start of the run the wind is a steadyish 10 knots and increases to 15 knots by the end (left). The boat is heading into a small chop, and the tide has just turned and is heading out (against the boat) at about 0.5 - 1 knot. The average boat speed is 5-6 knots. The vmg to windward is 3.5 knots. The tacking angle from the true wind is 50-55 degrees…</p>
<p>Ian. Here is <em>Little Cat</em> yesterday after I turned her to tack directly into the wind in San Quentin Bay (moving from left to right).At the start of the run the wind is a steadyish 10 knots and increases to 15 knots by the end (left). The boat is heading into a small chop, and the tide has just turned and is heading out (against the boat) at about 0.5 - 1 knot. The average boat speed is 5-6 knots. The vmg to windward is 3.5 knots. The tacking angle from the true wind is 50-55 degrees (100 - 110 degrees). I think this is a pretty good real world example given that the boat is heading into the tide. It supports my humble opinion that in ideal conditions (this wind, dead flat water and no tide) that a Tiki 21 can do square tacks, or close to (45 - 50 degree tacks).</p>
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<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104556?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104556?profile=original" class="align-full" width="561"/></a><br/> <br/> <cite>Ian Bamsey said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/looking-for-a-way-to-improve-upwind-sailing?page=2&commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A145582&x=1#2195841Comment145490"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>This is an interesting discussion and Rory's figures are helpful. If I take Rory's 45<span>°</span> to windward to mean to the apparent wind, then in 10knt of true wind, with a boat speed of 5.5knt, the angle to true wind is about 68<span>°</span>, so a tack goes through 136<span>°</span>. These figure tie up with my 120<span>°+</span> tacks and that reported by Bjorn.</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104542?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104542?profile=original" class="align-left" width="707"/></a></p>
<p>I might be wrong on what Rory was saying? For example, sailing into 10knts true, at 45degs, with a boat speed of just over 2.8knt gives an apparent angle of just over 35<span>°</span>, which I think is very good, but might be possible, but I don't have enough experience to say.</p>
<p>These are all theoretic figures, but are revealing. The theory also tell me that if I'm sailing in 10knts of wind and making 4.0knt at 65<span>°</span> to the true wind, I will be sailing at 47.7<span>°</span> to apparent wind. If I want to maintain my bearing and increase my boat speed by 0.5knts, then the angle to apparent wind changes to 46.1<span>°</span>. So I need to improve my boat's pointing ability by over 1.5<span>°</span>.</p>
<p>I think it's time for me to get a 2:1 on the peak halyard and a down haul! I'm not sure about new sails, the wife would kill me.</p>
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</blockquote> I am in complete agreement wi…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-09-29:2195841:Comment:1455822016-09-29T11:06:39.526ZPatrick John McGrathhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/PatrickJohnMcGrath
<p>I am in complete agreement with Maxim about locking the jib halyard at the top of the mast.</p>
<p>I have ,in the past, lost two important overnight races when the jib halyard in one case ripped the mast cleat right out of the mast and another when the halyard tore out of the deck jam cleat. The danger of a jib locked at the masthead is not very great as the jib sheet can always be released in a moment of danger.</p>
<p>As to the Wharram hulls, they have much less efficient hull section…</p>
<p>I am in complete agreement with Maxim about locking the jib halyard at the top of the mast.</p>
<p>I have ,in the past, lost two important overnight races when the jib halyard in one case ripped the mast cleat right out of the mast and another when the halyard tore out of the deck jam cleat. The danger of a jib locked at the masthead is not very great as the jib sheet can always be released in a moment of danger.</p>
<p>As to the Wharram hulls, they have much less efficient hull section when relied upon to resist leeway. Wharram catamarans can be improved in windward speed and angle by fitting properly designed low aspect ratio fin keels. Norman Cross's multi's are a prime example.</p> Very hollow :-(tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-09-22:2195841:Comment:1454502016-09-22T12:00:14.555ZOlivier R.http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/rouxolivier
<p>Very hollow :-(</p>
<p>Very hollow :-(</p> First thank you all for the…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-09-22:2195841:Comment:1452582016-09-22T09:20:56.235ZBarthttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/Bart
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<p>First thank you all for the help and advice! Last weekend i was sailing and trying to improve step by step.<br></br>It seems that one big ( the biggest?) shortcoming was my lack of experience with this rig, i pull the peak higher now, that helps a lot. I still find the traveler difficult to work with, it needs to much power to adjust and i cant adjust it with the main sheet tight. ( witch was very easy on my former quarter ton boat). the sail profile is improving i think.But the…</p>
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<p>First thank you all for the help and advice! Last weekend i was sailing and trying to improve step by step.<br/>It seems that one big ( the biggest?) shortcoming was my lack of experience with this rig, i pull the peak higher now, that helps a lot. I still find the traveler difficult to work with, it needs to much power to adjust and i cant adjust it with the main sheet tight. ( witch was very easy on my former quarter ton boat). the sail profile is improving i think.But the deepest point of the sail is arround the middle, i thougt it should be arround 1/3 from the front? But it looks more or less the the same as the photo rory did post so it might be alright?</p>
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<p>The vmg i get is also better, but still don't now if this is what is to be expected. ( see photo: apparent wind 14 knt, apparent wind angle 37 degrees, boat speed 5.8 knots vmg 3.1 knots) When compared with other boats i am upwind about as fast as an open 6,5 meter sharpy ( a "valk").</p>
<p>Tacking angle is still arround 70 degrees, a lot sharper than the 90 degrees angle i get from a quarter ton boat. ( sailed a nice match with the waarschippers club that same weekend). The 45 degrees as rory reports are a nice goal for next year i think...</p>
<p>Probably i need to practise a lot, improve the usability of the traveler and put a good layer of antifaul on the bottom.</p>
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<p>Again,</p>
<p>Thanks for your thought and advice!</p>
<p>Bart</p>
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<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104277?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104277?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930106442?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930106442?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930108368?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-left" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930108368?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p> This is an interesting discus…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-09-09:2195841:Comment:1454902016-09-09T12:56:41.879ZIan Bamseyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/IanBamsey
<p>This is an interesting discussion and Rory's figures are helpful. If I take Rory's 45<span>°</span> to windward to mean to the apparent wind, then in 10knt of true wind, with a boat speed of 5.5knt, the angle to true wind is about 68<span>°</span>, so a tack goes through 136<span>°</span>. These figure tie up with my 120<span>°+</span> tacks and that reported by Bjorn.…</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104542?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-left" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104542?profile=original" width="707"></img></a></p>
<p>This is an interesting discussion and Rory's figures are helpful. If I take Rory's 45<span>°</span> to windward to mean to the apparent wind, then in 10knt of true wind, with a boat speed of 5.5knt, the angle to true wind is about 68<span>°</span>, so a tack goes through 136<span>°</span>. These figure tie up with my 120<span>°+</span> tacks and that reported by Bjorn.</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104542?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930104542?profile=original" width="707" class="align-left"/></a></p>
<p>I might be wrong on what Rory was saying? For example, sailing into 10knts true, at 45degs, with a boat speed of just over 2.8knt gives an apparent angle of just over 35<span>°</span>, which I think is very good, but might be possible, but I don't have enough experience to say.</p>
<p>These are all theoretic figures, but are revealing. The theory also tell me that if I'm sailing in 10knts of wind and making 4.0knt at 65<span>°</span> to the true wind, I will be sailing at 47.7<span>°</span> to apparent wind. If I want to maintain my bearing and increase my boat speed by 0.5knts, then the angle to apparent wind changes to 46.1<span>°</span>. So I need to improve my boat's pointing ability by over 1.5<span>°</span>.</p>
<p>I think it's time for me to get a 2:1 on the peak halyard and a down haul! I'm not sure about new sails, the wife would kill me.</p>
<p></p> Hi Bart
Yes, I will just repe…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-08-24:2195841:Comment:1445822016-08-24T21:04:58.660ZRory McDougallhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RoryMcDougall
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930103450?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-left" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930103450?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="500"></img></a> <a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930105713?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-left" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930105713?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="500"></img></a> Hi Bart</p>
<p>Yes, I will just repeat all the points that have already been made!!</p>
<p>All are right with having a clean bum! Wharrams have a large wetted surface area of hulls compared with other cats. So cleanliness is a must. The Tiki wingsail rig needs…</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930103450?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="500" class="align-left" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930103450?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024"/></a><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930105713?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="500" class="align-left" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930105713?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024"/></a>Hi Bart</p>
<p>Yes, I will just repeat all the points that have already been made!!</p>
<p>All are right with having a clean bum! Wharrams have a large wetted surface area of hulls compared with other cats. So cleanliness is a must. The Tiki wingsail rig needs to be powered up to sail efficiently to windward. Cookie comes alive when wind gets above 12kts. I can get true angle of 40-45 to the wind. Add leeway and I average 45 degrees to windward. As seas get steeper and rougher this angle gets worse as leeway increases when boat is stopped in waves.</p>
<p>-Get good rig tension for tight forestay.</p>
<p>- Try using windward jibsheet to barberhaul the clew of jib in a few inches and see how it helps pointing angle.</p>
<p>- Get heaps of tension on peak halyard for going to windward. Dump mainsheet. Haul on peak halyard. Sheet in and fly!</p>
<p>- As wind gets up, reef jib first before reefing main to keep aft sail area driving the boat into wind better. A bigger jib than main will pull bows to leeward over every wave.</p>
<p>- For new sails try Westaway Sails as well as Jeckells. Cookie has used just 2 sets of Westaway sails in 25 years = v.good value.</p>
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<p>A final note to all having trouble hauling mainsails down when running before the wind. Raise the main in front of the shrouds for downwind. - No friction. No chafe. No hassles!</p>
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