Experience with keel stubs or other foils on T21? - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-28T23:36:07Zhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/experience-with-keel-stubs-or-other-foils-on-t21?groupUrl=tiki21&groupId=2195841%3AGroup%3A10502&id=2195841%3ATopic%3A129451&feed=yes&xn_auth=noMichel,
Your should start a b…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-08:2195841:Comment:1300372015-05-08T20:22:57.898ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>Michel,</p>
<p>Your should start a blog so that we can all follow your progress, both on your race boat and the race :-)</p>
<p>Roger</p>
<p>Michel,</p>
<p>Your should start a blog so that we can all follow your progress, both on your race boat and the race :-)</p>
<p>Roger</p> Quick update: I've asked both…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-07:2195841:Comment:1301082015-05-07T18:01:37.512ZMichael Doughertyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/MichaelDougherty
<p>Quick update: I've asked both Hanneke & Richard Woods about keel stubs. Some difference in opinions there.</p>
<p>Hanneke: "I think the best solution would be small streamlined keels like on the Mana or the Tiki 30. You can see the keel shape of the Mana on our website in the piece about the Mana design. You will have to attach them well, normally the keel is part of a backbone that carries on inside the hull. If you build such a keel you can also deepen the skeg and rudder, which may…</p>
<p>Quick update: I've asked both Hanneke & Richard Woods about keel stubs. Some difference in opinions there.</p>
<p>Hanneke: "I think the best solution would be small streamlined keels like on the Mana or the Tiki 30. You can see the keel shape of the Mana on our website in the piece about the Mana design. You will have to attach them well, normally the keel is part of a backbone that carries on inside the hull. If you build such a keel you can also deepen the skeg and rudder, which may also improve windward sailing.</p>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1">When I am back home in June, I can send you some drawings of such a keel, but if you keep to the same position and proportions of the Mana keels, you should be OK."</span></p>
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<p class="p1">Richard Woods suggested that these wouldn't be big enough to be worth adding, and that if we were going to the trouble of adding them we should make larger ones that would work better. He also suggested that we could try better rudders, turning it more into a Hobie 16 style boat.</p>
<p class="p1">Not sure I'll have time to make either of these mods before the race, but if I do I'll post an update here. Thanks everyone for the input!</p> Good luck - looking forward t…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-05:2195841:Comment:1300082015-05-05T18:55:54.105ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>Good luck - looking forward to following the race</p>
<p></p>
<p>Good luck - looking forward to following the race</p>
<p></p> Good point. He's been pretty…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-05:2195841:Comment:1300962015-05-05T18:54:07.437ZMichael Doughertyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/MichaelDougherty
<p>Good point. He's been pretty active in the Race to Alaska stuff, I'll try & contact him and put this question to him. Sounds like he's thought a lot about all these options. </p>
<p>If I add anything, I'm leaning towards the simplest LAR keel option like on Mana 24. As you pointed out, the "foil" such that there is one now is the V-shape, so something that takes that & makes it work better feels intuitively nice. Plus it's the least invasive, fastest to build, easiest to change, and…</p>
<p>Good point. He's been pretty active in the Race to Alaska stuff, I'll try & contact him and put this question to him. Sounds like he's thought a lot about all these options. </p>
<p>If I add anything, I'm leaning towards the simplest LAR keel option like on Mana 24. As you pointed out, the "foil" such that there is one now is the V-shape, so something that takes that & makes it work better feels intuitively nice. Plus it's the least invasive, fastest to build, easiest to change, and most consistent with the overall design aesthetic. But of course I really have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll try & consult some experts first!</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Roger said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/experience-with-keel-stubs-or-other-foils-on-t21?groupUrl=tiki21&commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A130095&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#2195841Comment130095"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I saw that by Richard Woods, and no doubt good advice. On the other hand I think that he is saying that a piercing daggerboard is not good compared to boards in the hulls. Its a relative thing - I'm guessing that a piercing dagger board is not great compared to dagger boards in the hulls, but could still be (way?) better than no board at all.<br/> <br/> <cite>Michael Dougherty said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/experience-with-keel-stubs-or-other-foils-on-t21?groupUrl=tiki21&commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A129866&xg_source=activity&groupId=2195841%3AGroup%3A10502#2195841Comment130094"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Cool, great tip. Richard Woods has a lengthy, awesome post on this topic here: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/12-to-be-published-mainly-technical/53-keels-or-daggerboards-the-pros-and-cons" target="_blank">http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/12-to-be-publis...</a>.</p>
<p>I also like the center-mounted idea, but this paragraph from his post put me off it:</p>
<p>"Don't use central boards though the bridgedeck. They simply don't work well. The Prout brothers discovered that in 1953 when they fitted a central board on the prototype Shearwater. By 1954 they had fitted boards in the hulls. The Stiletto catamaran started with a central daggerboard but owners quickly found that converting to ones in the hulls improved performance significantly."</p>
<p>Generally agree w/you on enjoying the Tiki's strengths as is. Seattle's tricky however, as winds & waterways are all aligned N/S, and we have strong currents & often light winds. So we are often sailing directly upwind, often into a current, meaning decent upwind ability is a must. It somehow crushes my soul to use the engine to get somewhere when I feel the boat should be sailing there!</p>
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</blockquote> PS if you are not proud there…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-05:2195841:Comment:1298672015-05-05T18:37:23.668ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>PS if you are not proud there is always the lee board option - some people swear by them. Also, Kohler's promotion of keel winglets - though I can never see how they can work that well compared to a deep NACA foil <a href="http://www.ikarus342000.com/Antivortexp.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ikarus342000.com/Antivortexp.pdf</a></p>
<p>PS if you are not proud there is always the lee board option - some people swear by them. Also, Kohler's promotion of keel winglets - though I can never see how they can work that well compared to a deep NACA foil <a href="http://www.ikarus342000.com/Antivortexp.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ikarus342000.com/Antivortexp.pdf</a></p> I saw that by Richard Woods,…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-05:2195841:Comment:1300952015-05-05T18:28:41.562ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>I saw that by Richard Woods, and no doubt good advice. On the other hand I think that he is saying that a piercing daggerboard is not good compared to boards in the hulls. Its a relative thing - I'm guessing that a piercing dagger board is not great compared to dagger boards in the hulls, but could still be (way?) better than no board at all.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Michael Dougherty said:…</cite></p>
<p>I saw that by Richard Woods, and no doubt good advice. On the other hand I think that he is saying that a piercing daggerboard is not good compared to boards in the hulls. Its a relative thing - I'm guessing that a piercing dagger board is not great compared to dagger boards in the hulls, but could still be (way?) better than no board at all.<br/> <br/> <cite>Michael Dougherty said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/experience-with-keel-stubs-or-other-foils-on-t21?groupUrl=tiki21&commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A129866&xg_source=activity&groupId=2195841%3AGroup%3A10502#2195841Comment130094"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Cool, great tip. Richard Woods has a lengthy, awesome post on this topic here: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/12-to-be-published-mainly-technical/53-keels-or-daggerboards-the-pros-and-cons" target="_blank">http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/12-to-be-publis...</a>.</p>
<p>I also like the center-mounted idea, but this paragraph from his post put me off it:</p>
<p>"Don't use central boards though the bridgedeck. They simply don't work well. The Prout brothers discovered that in 1953 when they fitted a central board on the prototype Shearwater. By 1954 they had fitted boards in the hulls. The Stiletto catamaran started with a central daggerboard but owners quickly found that converting to ones in the hulls improved performance significantly."</p>
<p>Generally agree w/you on enjoying the Tiki's strengths as is. Seattle's tricky however, as winds & waterways are all aligned N/S, and we have strong currents & often light winds. So we are often sailing directly upwind, often into a current, meaning decent upwind ability is a must. It somehow crushes my soul to use the engine to get somewhere when I feel the boat should be sailing there!</p>
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</blockquote> Excellent - thanks! Roger sa…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-05:2195841:Comment:1298662015-05-05T18:18:04.488ZMichael Doughertyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/MichaelDougherty
<p>Excellent - thanks!<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Roger said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/experience-with-keel-stubs-or-other-foils-on-t21?groupUrl=tiki21&commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A129865&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#2195841Comment129865"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>BTW my multihull sailing bible is "Catamaran Racing for the 90s" by Rick White and Mary Wells. The title is hilarious and may initially sound off-putting, but this book is the…</p>
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<p>Excellent - thanks!<br/> <br/> <cite>Roger said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/experience-with-keel-stubs-or-other-foils-on-t21?groupUrl=tiki21&commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A129865&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#2195841Comment129865"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>BTW my multihull sailing bible is "Catamaran Racing for the 90s" by Rick White and Mary Wells. The title is hilarious and may initially sound off-putting, but this book is the bomb for sail trim technique. It is about beach cat racing, but the theory applies to any sized cat. Includes sections on techniques for boats without boards.</p>
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</blockquote> Cool, great tip. Richard Wood…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-05:2195841:Comment:1300942015-05-05T18:14:18.324ZMichael Doughertyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/MichaelDougherty
<p>Cool, great tip. Richard Woods has a lengthy, awesome post on this topic here: <a href="http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/12-to-be-published-mainly-technical/53-keels-or-daggerboards-the-pros-and-cons" target="_blank">http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/12-to-be-published-mainly-technical/53-keels-or-daggerboards-the-pros-and-cons</a>.</p>
<p>I also like the center-mounted idea, but this paragraph from his post put me off it:</p>
<p>"Don't use central boards…</p>
<p>Cool, great tip. Richard Woods has a lengthy, awesome post on this topic here: <a href="http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/12-to-be-published-mainly-technical/53-keels-or-daggerboards-the-pros-and-cons" target="_blank">http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/12-to-be-published-mainly-technical/53-keels-or-daggerboards-the-pros-and-cons</a>.</p>
<p>I also like the center-mounted idea, but this paragraph from his post put me off it:</p>
<p>"Don't use central boards though the bridgedeck. They simply don't work well. The Prout brothers discovered that in 1953 when they fitted a central board on the prototype Shearwater. By 1954 they had fitted boards in the hulls. The Stiletto catamaran started with a central daggerboard but owners quickly found that converting to ones in the hulls improved performance significantly."</p>
<p>Generally agree w/you on enjoying the Tiki's strengths as is. Seattle's tricky however, as winds & waterways are all aligned N/S, and we have strong currents & often light winds. So we are often sailing directly upwind, often into a current, meaning decent upwind ability is a must. It somehow crushes my soul to use the engine to get somewhere when I feel the boat should be sailing there!</p> BTW my multihull sailing bibl…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-05:2195841:Comment:1298652015-05-05T18:07:39.591ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>BTW my multihull sailing bible is "Catamaran Racing for the 90s" by Rick White and Mary Wells. The title is hilarious and may initially sound off-putting, but this book is the bomb for sail trim technique. It is about beach cat racing, but the theory applies to any sized cat. Includes sections on techniques for boats without boards.</p>
<p>BTW my multihull sailing bible is "Catamaran Racing for the 90s" by Rick White and Mary Wells. The title is hilarious and may initially sound off-putting, but this book is the bomb for sail trim technique. It is about beach cat racing, but the theory applies to any sized cat. Includes sections on techniques for boats without boards.</p> Hi Michael,
I would suggest t…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-05-05:2195841:Comment:1299182015-05-05T18:01:19.214ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>Hi Michael,</p>
<p>I would suggest trying the boatdesign.net "multihulls" or "foils" forums - you will definitely get some informed feedback.</p>
<p>I have also toyed with the idea of a center-mounted (single) long piercing dagger board. Apparently it has been tried before with mixed results. Of course, the way to do it properly would be to make dagger board boxes in each hull. I am constantly battling with these urges to fiddle and experiment, but am usually restrained by (my wife and) the…</p>
<p>Hi Michael,</p>
<p>I would suggest trying the boatdesign.net "multihulls" or "foils" forums - you will definitely get some informed feedback.</p>
<p>I have also toyed with the idea of a center-mounted (single) long piercing dagger board. Apparently it has been tried before with mixed results. Of course, the way to do it properly would be to make dagger board boxes in each hull. I am constantly battling with these urges to fiddle and experiment, but am usually restrained by (my wife and) the notion that its best to enjoy the tiki for its strengths and beauty as it is. Different situation for you with the big race though.</p>