Engineered Carbon Fibre Beams for a Tiki 26 - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-29T08:36:51Zhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/engineered-carbon-fibre-beams-for-a-tiki-26?commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A141890&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWhen you lay up in a mold and…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-05-05:2195841:Comment:1422762016-05-05T10:09:23.804ZIan Bamseyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/IanBamsey
<p>When you lay up in a mold and you overrun an edge you normally trim with a sharp knife against the mold edge just as the layup goes off. With kevlar, the knife will cut, but then it catches and drags the cloth breaking up the structure. Once it's gone right off, you need a grinder or jigsaw with plenty of blades!</p>
<p>Why not make a big one piece mold and layup a carbon kevlar structure. There would be little point in using epoxy as polyester is strong and it's not below the water…</p>
<p>When you lay up in a mold and you overrun an edge you normally trim with a sharp knife against the mold edge just as the layup goes off. With kevlar, the knife will cut, but then it catches and drags the cloth breaking up the structure. Once it's gone right off, you need a grinder or jigsaw with plenty of blades!</p>
<p>Why not make a big one piece mold and layup a carbon kevlar structure. There would be little point in using epoxy as polyester is strong and it's not below the water line. </p>
<p>What a great project, take me back 35yrs to my school days when our teacher was designing slalom kayaks, carving clay plugs and making molds. All great fun.</p> Thanks Ian. I'm thinking of…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-05-05:2195841:Comment:1421562016-05-05T08:43:29.252ZRobert Hugheshttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RobertHughes
<p>Thanks Ian. I'm thinking of adding it over the carbon on the cockpit floor, to protect against things like the steg of an outboard, or an anchor being dropped on it. I'll be laminating a full 8x4 sheet, then trimming it, so I need to check how my tools deal with cutting it.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Ian Bamsey said:…</cite></p>
<p>Thanks Ian. I'm thinking of adding it over the carbon on the cockpit floor, to protect against things like the steg of an outboard, or an anchor being dropped on it. I'll be laminating a full 8x4 sheet, then trimming it, so I need to check how my tools deal with cutting it.<br/> <br/> <cite>Ian Bamsey said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/engineered-carbon-fibre-beams-for-a-tiki-26?commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A142070&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2195841Comment142070"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I've built kevlar kayaks. It's much like other cloth to lay up. It's just very difficult to trim when wetted out.</p>
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</blockquote> I've built kevlar kayaks. It'…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-05-05:2195841:Comment:1420702016-05-05T08:36:05.126ZIan Bamseyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/IanBamsey
<p>I've built kevlar kayaks. It's much like other cloth to lay up. It's just very difficult to trim when wetted out.</p>
<p>I've built kevlar kayaks. It's much like other cloth to lay up. It's just very difficult to trim when wetted out.</p> Hi folks,
I'm doing some expe…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-05-05:2195841:Comment:1420692016-05-05T08:31:48.595ZRobert Hugheshttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RobertHughes
<p>Hi folks,</p>
<p>I'm doing some experiments at the moment, comparing glass vs carbon fibre and epoxy vs polyester resin, over PVC foam cores. I'll start a new thread when I've reached some conclusions. The reason for the tests is that I've decided to build a new cockpit rather than adapt the old one to fit my new beams. As well as saving quite a bit of weight I want to add lockers and cut down on the places where water can come up. I may also use Kevlar or another aramid in selected…</p>
<p>Hi folks,</p>
<p>I'm doing some experiments at the moment, comparing glass vs carbon fibre and epoxy vs polyester resin, over PVC foam cores. I'll start a new thread when I've reached some conclusions. The reason for the tests is that I've decided to build a new cockpit rather than adapt the old one to fit my new beams. As well as saving quite a bit of weight I want to add lockers and cut down on the places where water can come up. I may also use Kevlar or another aramid in selected areas where it's properties are advantageous. I have heard that Kevlar can be difficult to work with, so I'm checking that out as well...</p>
<p>All the best</p>
<p>Rob</p> I´ve bought carbon very cheap…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-04-24:2195841:Comment:1419902016-04-24T09:27:59.217Zsailorjoyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/sailorjoy
<p>I´ve bought carbon very cheap at "hp-textiles.com". They offer short ends and second choice layers at "ebay". I paid for the carbon for my three beams 250,- Euro. I find it not so expensive.</p>
<p>Jan</p>
<p>I´ve bought carbon very cheap at "hp-textiles.com". They offer short ends and second choice layers at "ebay". I paid for the carbon for my three beams 250,- Euro. I find it not so expensive.</p>
<p>Jan</p> Robert, Thanks for your well…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-04-23:2195841:Comment:1418902016-04-23T21:08:50.894ZIan Bamseyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/IanBamsey
<p>Robert, Thanks for your well thought out answers to the points I raised. Like you I really like the building / design part of these boats and I can understand why you've gone for the carbon beams. Very interesting and a great result. </p>
<p>I'm intrigued by the composites approach. Of course, ply and epoxy is a composite and ply can be thought of as a structure core. I feel there might be a possible design at a low(er) cost that might confirm the weight advantages. Kevlar is a possible…</p>
<p>Robert, Thanks for your well thought out answers to the points I raised. Like you I really like the building / design part of these boats and I can understand why you've gone for the carbon beams. Very interesting and a great result. </p>
<p>I'm intrigued by the composites approach. Of course, ply and epoxy is a composite and ply can be thought of as a structure core. I feel there might be a possible design at a low(er) cost that might confirm the weight advantages. Kevlar is a possible material for beams as it has high tensile strength but is a bit cheaper than carbon. Carbon is particularly good for creating stiff structures, but this is not a big factor for Tiki beams. I'm interested in beams from a foam core with vacuum bagging etc. Low temperature prepregs and more and more available.</p>
<p>Your comment about small-boat-big-adventure really resonates. I've really enjoyed my small trips on my Tiki 21 - only a few nights so far but great fun. I'm a kayaker and this boat feels like a pair of oversized WWRs with sails. I'm tempted by a Tiki 30 for the family, but fear loosing the urge to go for a blast after work.</p>
<p>There have been some other good reactions to the comments from others. I look forward to some more.</p>
<p>Ian</p>
<p></p> Hi modern folks,
I´m a tradi…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-04-22:2195841:Comment:1415562016-04-22T12:37:13.177Zsailorjoyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/sailorjoy
<p>Hi modern folks,</p>
<p>I´m a traditional sailor grow up on big traditionel sailingships and find the philosophy of wharram to keep it simple and cheap very good. But I agree with Robert to save weight and make the handling easier. The handling includes also the maintenaces like sanding and painting every season. When you add up the money for painting and the time for sanding of wooden beams over the years than are the costs for carbon beams not so high especially when you build them by…</p>
<p>Hi modern folks,</p>
<p>I´m a traditional sailor grow up on big traditionel sailingships and find the philosophy of wharram to keep it simple and cheap very good. But I agree with Robert to save weight and make the handling easier. The handling includes also the maintenaces like sanding and painting every season. When you add up the money for painting and the time for sanding of wooden beams over the years than are the costs for carbon beams not so high especially when you build them by yourself.</p>
<p>Best regards</p>
<p>Jan</p> Robert, I am with you. I di…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-04-22:2195841:Comment:1414622016-04-22T06:34:27.675ZJerry Shttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/JerryS
<p>Robert, I am with you. I did not choose a Wharram for the philosophy rather was is the boat that suited my requirements of ease of transportation, storage, maintenance, launching and sailing ability. I went to Australia whilst it went into a barn in deepest Dorset for three years. I have road moved it twice on a car trailer and another two times with a lorry plus HIAB.I sailed it to the Netherlands and will sail it back to either Liverpool or Portsmouth. It also provides an endless…</p>
<p>Robert, I am with you. I did not choose a Wharram for the philosophy rather was is the boat that suited my requirements of ease of transportation, storage, maintenance, launching and sailing ability. I went to Australia whilst it went into a barn in deepest Dorset for three years. I have road moved it twice on a car trailer and another two times with a lorry plus HIAB.I sailed it to the Netherlands and will sail it back to either Liverpool or Portsmouth. It also provides an endless opportunity to fiddle, tweak and customise. My mast goes up today and I have replaced all the standing rigging which needs to be re-set, so the mast has to go up and own a few times with the launch. If it were carbon I could do it alone rather than messing with a crane. My first project this season is the electrical system and I have gone for a small petrol battery generator (<a href="http://www.thesupercharger.co.uk" target="_blank">www.thesupercharger.co.uk</a>) Good luck with the cockpit and I hope you get out on the water in reasonable time.</p> Hi Ian,
Thanks for your comme…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-04-21:2195841:Comment:1415542016-04-21T19:56:13.331ZRobert Hugheshttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RobertHughes
<p>Hi Ian,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments, you raise some interesting points.</p>
<p>Regarding the Wharram philosophy and low costs, the way I look at it is that Wharrams provide the <strong><em>opportunity</em></strong> to get afloat very cheaply and simply, but from that starting point you can move as far as you wish, if you wish. These new beams have cost about 60% of what I originally paid for the boat, and they've not increased the value by anything like that, so they're not an economic…</p>
<p>Hi Ian,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments, you raise some interesting points.</p>
<p>Regarding the Wharram philosophy and low costs, the way I look at it is that Wharrams provide the <strong><em>opportunity</em></strong> to get afloat very cheaply and simply, but from that starting point you can move as far as you wish, if you wish. These new beams have cost about 60% of what I originally paid for the boat, and they've not increased the value by anything like that, so they're not an economic proposition, but they're something I wanted to try doing and by my own criteria I'm glad I have. There are people who buy or build a boat because they want to sail, and there are people who build or rebuild boats because they love building boats. I'm one of the latter, and one of the many reasons my starting point this time was a Wharram is that they're cheap, robust, and easy to work on (obviously as well as being seaworthy and incredibly beautiful). The great thing about the Wharram community is that these boats attract a huge variety of people from lots of different backgrounds, all with different outlooks and motivations.</p>
<p>Another way of looking at it is that I could have spent money trading up to a bigger boat, and that's what a lot of people do. I haven't, instead I'm trying to make my 26 footer as good as I can get it. I've sailed big boats and little ones, and I'm a firm believer in the saying that "the smaller your boat the bigger your adventure".</p>
<p>Regarding the weight advantage etc from this project, the main benefit as far as I'm concerned is in loading capacity, and to offset the weight of other things I plan to add. An example would be a goal-post structure across the sterrns to carry solar panels, antennae, and possibly a small wind vane. A limiting factor for small Wharrams undertaking long voyages is their ability to carry sufficient stores and I don't want to adversely affect that. I'm not concerned about loss of speed as I don't think it would be too significant, but these boats can give a very wet ride (even wetter than normal..) when heavily loaded. I once did a long trip on a Pahi 52 that was carrying a huge amount of stores, fuel and water. It still sailed well, but a lot of water came over the deck as soon as it got a bit rough. These boats with their fine bows need to be able to rise to the waves as easily as possible.</p>
<p>Low mainetance is a big advantage as far as I'm concerned, but this could have been achieved almost as well with aluminium at a lower cost. Aesthetically though, they wouldn't have been anything like as good, and I suppose I wanted to try working with carbon fibre as I've never done it before! I've also had a great deal of fun working on the design aspects of the project, and working out how to fabricate all the various components. I'm now turning my mind to the cockpit...</p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Rob</p> Here's a sketch showing rough…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2016-04-21:2195841:Comment:1414612016-04-21T19:08:55.040ZRobert Hugheshttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RobertHughes
<p>Here's a sketch showing roughly how the cockpit will be hung from the new beams:-</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930103714?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930103714?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="500"></img></a> In practice it will be a little different because the cockpit is actually a bit lower, but the principle is the same. I've moulded glassfibre shells from the beams like I did for the upper halves of the feet, but with a sheet of 2mm rubber under the release film to give the required…</p>
<p>Here's a sketch showing roughly how the cockpit will be hung from the new beams:-</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930103714?profile=original"><img width="500" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1930103714?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="500"/></a>In practice it will be a little different because the cockpit is actually a bit lower, but the principle is the same. I've moulded glassfibre shells from the beams like I did for the upper halves of the feet, but with a sheet of 2mm rubber under the release film to give the required clearance. The cradles will be bonded on as an integral part of the cockpit structure. The cockpit will be trapped between the beams, so the assembly routine will be to secure the mast beam first, put the cockpit into place, then secure the aft beam.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jerry S said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/engineered-carbon-fibre-beams-for-a-tiki-26#2195841Comment141617"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Robert, That is a magnificent project and you have done an excellent job with the fitting and finishing. I would love to have a carbon mast but cannot find a suitable excuse. How do you plan to hang the cockpit? Jerry </p>
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