Boat choices, between the Pahi 42 and the Tiki38?

[Chris Curtis]

Hello Folks.  I recently posted another question about the 42, but it got me thinking about some larger issues, specifically choice.   I have talked to three persons selling Wharrams for months (or longer!).  There are two 38's and a 42.    The two 38's appear to be very clean, and built to a high standard.  They are both also fairly "new", being less than 10 years old each.    The 42 is older, and appears to be very up to date.    Ultimately the 42 is a bit less expensive, than the 38's, but all are within 25% of each other.

We are two adults, and two preteens, girl and boy.   I have some bias towards the Tiki because of the looks, and it is a ketch (I perceive some benefits?).  On the other side, the 42 is larger, and slightly less in cost.    I also think the Tikis may be a better performer, but I have no informed data to back it up.  And really, I'm not sure it matters when I'm looking for comfort/safety over performance.  

How would you grapple with a question like that?  What questions would you be asking yourself?   

Chris Curtis

[Bertrand FERCOT]

Hello Chris

If you want to leave on your cat at full time with your 2 teen agers I think it's very important to have a boat which accept a good pay load, so at my eyes the Pahi42 is better on this point.
When I have a look at the water line of theTikis in the water, very often I can see they are near to be over loaded with the water touching the chine.
The weight of the boat empty indicated on the studied plans is in fact the weight of the boat completely empty with no engine, no gears, no anchor and chain etc and only if the boat is built with light plywood and stringers. So if you want to know the real weight of the boat empty with all the gears you have to add about almost 1 ton and the real pay load is the water, food, crew, clothes, books, petrol, tender, by-cycles etc. And when you live on board the weight increases very quickly.

Bertrand

[Ann and Neville Clement]

Hi,
With the Tiki design, the chine makes it easier to see if the boat is heavy in the water. With the other design,s one can simply paint the water line a little higher and nobody knows if she is heavy or not. Most cruisers repaint the waterline if they like to have lots of stuff aboard. On our Tiki 46 we normally have the chine about 6 or 7 inches above the water but when we leave Florida to come to Bahamas for the winter, we have lots of extra food because it is so expensive in Bahamas. WE go down a couple inches then.
Pay load is one consideration but so is volume and privacy. Having a room of one's own is important to most teens. If you can afford it, I suggest it will make things easier for all of you.
Do not forget that the classics are good boats. Look at the Narai and maybe consider replacing the crossbeams to take advantage of the newer I beam design as on the Tiki so you can make them longer with no weight gain and then have a wider boat for greater stability and more deck space. The Narai Mk IV would be a good choice and folks are still building them. The Tehini might be too big and the Tangaroa Mk IV might be too small but take a look anyway.
I think the Tiki 46 is likely a good size for a family but it seems really big for this elderly couple living here on Peace IV. The smaller boats are cheaper, easier to build, cheaper to build, and if you need to pay for dock space any time, cheaper there too. Go visit the likely boats and if you can do it, I suggest you spend a whole day moving around in the boat as a family.
Well, time to move into greater shelter because a storm is forecast for this afternoon. Safe sailing! Ann and Nev

[Hector de Ezcurra]

Ann and Nev (I never know which of you wrote) or whoever knows:
Hi. Do you know if the Tangaroa Mk IV has an update to the plans with the building plans of the new beams and a new deck? Or if a schooner rig with wingsails (similar to the Tiki 31 and 38) can be successfully adapted?
What is your opinion about that classic design, regarding tendency to rot, construction technique and confort onboard (mainly space)? Wouldn't the building technique be more old-fashioned and slow (compared to a T38 or a T31)?
Thank you.
Héctor.

Ann and Neville Clement said:

Hi,
With the Tiki design, the chine makes it easier to see if the boat is heavy in the water. With the other design,s one can simply paint the water line a little higher and nobody knows if she is heavy or not. Most cruisers repaint the waterline if they like to have lots of stuff aboard. On our Tiki 46 we normally have the chine about 6 or 7 inches above the water but when we leave Florida to come to Bahamas for the winter, we have lots of extra food because it is so expensive in Bahamas. WE go down a couple inches then.
Pay load is one consideration but so is volume and privacy. Having a room of one's own is important to most teens. If you can afford it, I suggest it will make things easier for all of you.
Do not forget that the classics are good boats. Look at the Narai and maybe consider replacing the crossbeams to take advantage of the newer I beam design as on the Tiki so you can make them longer with no weight gain and then have a wider boat for greater stability and more deck space. The Narai Mk IV would be a good choice and folks are still building them. The Tehini might be too big and the Tangaroa Mk IV might be too small but take a look anyway.
I think the Tiki 46 is likely a good size for a family but it seems really big for this elderly couple living here on Peace IV. The smaller boats are cheaper, easier to build, cheaper to build, and if you need to pay for dock space any time, cheaper there too. Go visit the likely boats and if you can do it, I suggest you spend a whole day moving around in the boat as a family.
Well, time to move into greater shelter because a storm is forecast for this afternoon. Safe sailing! Ann and Nev

[Carl]

Héctor,
I owned a Tangaroa MkIV a number of years ago. I believe there is an update or plans to convert the beams to being lashed rather than bolted. The ketch rig was easily handled, but windward performance was very poor. Not sure about a schooner rig on the Tangaroa, but I'm sure the Tiki rigs will improve performance.
The classics are very solid, well designed boats, but there are many rotten examples out there too, mainly due to a lack of maintenance, poorly built boats and poor choice of materials. The beam troughs are a nightmare, but could be vastly improved just with a bit of thought.
The Tiki's are a newer design using newer techniques and materials. It is supposed to be easier to build and faster.

I lived on my Tangaroa for 2 years. Internally they are not very spacious by comparison to similar sized yachts, but the deck space cannot be beaten. 2 people would live/cruise comfortably on a Tangaroa, with enough space for provisions, clothing, water and fuel etc. In my opinion many improvements could be made to the design starting with the beam troughs.
Are you considering buying or building?

Carl

[Ann and Neville Clement]

Carl, What would you do to the beam troughs? I must say the lashed crossbeams work well on our Tiki 46. Ann and Nev

[Hector de Ezcurra]

Carl:
Thanks for your info. I'm building a Richard Woods 27 foot Surfsong. I'm about 70% of the building process. But I'm always thinking about "What's next?". I'm trying to accumulate as much as information about Wharram cats as I can, to make the best choice (which could even be: not building anything else).
My choice today would be a Tiki 31, mostly for the size and the aesthetic look. That schooner tiki sail rig fascinates me, but you could have something similar on a Tangaroa (I now have seen it on Wharram's website).
Héctor.

Carl said:

Héctor,
I owned a Tangaroa MkIV a number of years ago. I believe there is an update or plans to convert the beams to being lashed rather than bolted. The ketch rig was easily handled, but windward performance was very poor. Not sure about a schooner rig on the Tangaroa, but I'm sure the Tiki rigs will improve performance.
The classics are very solid, well designed boats, but there are many rotten examples out there too, mainly due to a lack of maintenance, poorly built boats and poor choice of materials. The beam troughs are a nightmare, but could be vastly improved just with a bit of thought.
The Tiki's are a newer design using newer techniques and materials. It is supposed to be easier to build and faster.

I lived on my Tangaroa for 2 years. Internally they are not very spacious by comparison to similar sized yachts, but the deck space cannot be beaten. 2 people would live/cruise comfortably on a Tangaroa, with enough space for provisions, clothing, water and fuel etc. In my opinion many improvements could be made to the design starting with the beam troughs.
Are you considering buying or building?

Carl

[Carl]

Ann and Neville Clement said:

Carl, What would you do to the beam troughs? I must say the lashed crossbeams work well on our Tiki 46. Ann and Nev

Hi Ann and Nev and Hector,
The beam troughs on the classics are water traps, causing rot! If I were to own a Tangaroa again (which is not impossible) I'd make these as watertight as possible, or at least glass each trough to the extent that water will wash away should it ever get into the trough.
Other mods that I would consider (this is by comparison to the Tangaroa I used to own) is, remove the diesel engine which was deck mounted, and replace with 2 outboards, add a "half" deck pod, and add a bimini to the other "half" (does this make sense? similar to that gorgeous Pahi 53 currently for sale). I lived in the tropics, which was great under shade, but when sailing, the sun was a killer. Also when the monsoon rains came around, it was no fun sitting locked inside a Tangaroa's hull in 32 deg C, even for 1 minute!

If money was no object I'd consider changing the rig to be more efficient to windward, maybe a bit taller too with more sail area as the standard boat was rather underpowered. That's possibly where Hector's idea of the Tiki rig will do well. Finally lashing the beams - not sure that I'd do that mod on a Tangaroa. I have no objection to lashing beams, but the fixing system on the Tangaroa was adequate. The only thing again is STOP THAT WATER, as the original beam fixing design could potentially be a weak point where it passes through the deck.

Second-hand Tangaroa's can be picked up for very little. They are mostly a bit spartan and may require some renovation or modernisation (I've been repairing houses for too long!!), but for some elbow grease, maybe a new sail or two and other improvements as mentioned above, you'll have a very sea-worthy 35ft yacht capable of taking on almost anything one could throw at it, and it will provide a reasonable amount of comfort for a cruising couple. Must admit though Hector, if I were to build a cruising cat now, I'd go for Tiki 38 (or 46 if I can convince the powers that be). Oh to dream! For now the T21 is great and brilliant for the beautiful cruising grounds on my doorstep! Good luck with your build and let's see some pics!

Cheers

Carl

[Tom]

I think I'd go for a sail on each of the boats. Drive the owner nuts without breaking the boat. Tacking, jibing, motoring, getting her so close to the wind she stalls, making everybody reef, running downwind with too much sail up, manuevering in the harbour, etc...

Then, if they'd still talk to me, I'd get them into a bidding war. It's a buyer's market at the moment it seems.

The owner pays for haul out, you pay for survey. I'd let the surveyor ask the questions. After the survey you can knock the price down some more by deducting the price of itemized repairs from the asking price. Maybe the surveyor also works for the insurance company that you like? Then you don't have to get another.

Check who is in the lead, and...

Realize that it's your wife's/kid's boat and let them decide :)

Worst case, you all get to take some nice trips and go for some day sails.

[Ann and Neville Clement]

Hi Hector,
I write and Nev fixes stuff.
About the old Classic designs, we have friends with them and one friend actually prefers the classic over the Pahi or Tiki plans. He built a big classic and sailed extensively in the Pacific and feels that the older keel is stronger. At least his boat survived a horrid pounding on the reef when mistakes were made entering a harbor one time.
There are modern upgrades to the old plans for Tiki type sails, longer crossbeams for a wider boat, etc etc. Contact the design office and if you tell them I sent you, they might give me a commission.
Nev and I are eager to see a friend's Tangaroa Mk IV which he plans to sail south from Michigan sometime soon. They are smaller, and that is to be expected as well as being less roomy inside. but they sure get the job done. They go good, according to our friend who sailed in the Pacific. He built the ketch and loved it. I would prefer the cutter. But the ketch would leave more room for a deck house. If I had one it would be mostly made of fabric. I am just dreaming. Nev and I will likely sail in Peace IV for the rest of our sailing days. But one always dreams about boats.
Perhaps some Tangaroa people will comment here. I really am interested in the design.
Ann (of Ann and Nev)

[Ann and Neville Clement]

Hi Tom,
I hope you were mostly just being funny about the hard time you would give any poor fella who had to sell his boat in today's market. Remember that next time it sould be you selling the boat!

About the beam troughs -
On the plans we had for the Tiki 46, they did say to glass the beam troughs completely and to make good fillets. They also had a way for the water to get out. There is a piece of hard wood that the beam sits on and you make a little hole for the water to exit. The bottom of the trough is rounded so water will not site in there. I did think that was important and did put some extra coats of epoxy on that fiberglass before it went off solid.

Ann and Nev

[Hector de Ezcurra]

Ann:
Thanks for your info. Do you think a classic design, like de Tangaroa Mk IV is much easier and faster to build than a Tiki 38? The Design Book says 1700 hs. vs. 2200, but we all know building might take much more than that. Even if those numbers are correct, 500 hs., to me, means sailing almost a year earlier, as I can work about 800 hs. a year in a project like this.
Regards.
Héctor.

Ann and Neville Clement said:

Hi Hector,
I write and Nev fixes stuff.
About the old Classic designs, we have friends with them and one friend actually prefers the classic over the Pahi or Tiki plans. He built a big classic and sailed extensively in the Pacific and feels that the older keel is stronger. At least his boat survived a horrid pounding on the reef when mistakes were made entering a harbor one time.
There are modern upgrades to the old plans for Tiki type sails, longer crossbeams for a wider boat, etc etc. Contact the design office and if you tell them I sent you, they might give me a commission.
Nev and I are eager to see a friend's Tangaroa Mk IV which he plans to sail south from Michigan sometime soon. They are smaller, and that is to be expected as well as being less roomy inside. but they sure get the job done. They go good, according to our friend who sailed in the Pacific. He built the ketch and loved it. I would prefer the cutter. But the ketch would leave more room for a deck house. If I had one it would be mostly made of fabric. I am just dreaming. Nev and I will likely sail in Peace IV for the rest of our sailing days. But one always dreams about boats.
Perhaps some Tangaroa people will comment here. I really am interested in the design.
Ann (of Ann and Nev)

[Ann and Neville Clement]

Hi,
The Wharrams think the Classics are quicker to build relative to the Tiki desgins and I would guess they know what they are talking about. They think the Tikis are faster and carry more load. My own opinion is that the cutter rig gives you a larger roller furling jib and we are dedicated cruisers which means we are grateful to be able to wait for fair winds. We are rarely needing to sail up wind for any reason. So one of our frustrations with Peace IV is that the roller furling jib is so small. It is the easiest sail to raise and use but the smallest sail aboard. Clifton Thompson is planning to put a longer bow sprit on his Tiki 46 and I think that will be a wonderful idea because then his jib can be bigger. We have an assymetric spinnaker which works well, but has to be brought out and set up and we are elderly and lazy. I sailed a monohull cutter for years alone and loved the ease of that giant jib that can be put on a cutter. I would not want to put a giant jib on a Tangaroa Mk IV unless I modified the crossbeams to be longer so the boat would have a good width to take that much yardage.
Oops, phone call from Jeff Kittle on Kittywake - they will drive to meet us in Titusville! Hoorah! Nev started engines. We will be underway in 3 min.
Ann and Nev

Hector de Ezcurra said:

Ann:
Thanks for your info. Do you think a classic design, like de Tangaroa Mk IV is much easier and faster to build than a Tiki 38? The Design Book says 1700 hs. vs. 2200, but we all know building might take much more than that. Even if those numbers are correct, 500 hs., to me, means sailing almost a year earlier, as I can work about 800 hs. a year in a project like this.
Regards.
Héctor.

Ann and Neville Clement said:

Hi Hector,
I write and Nev fixes stuff.
About the old Classic designs, we have friends with them and one friend actually prefers the classic over the Pahi or Tiki plans. He built a big classic and sailed extensively in the Pacific and feels that the older keel is stronger. At least his boat survived a horrid pounding on the reef when mistakes were made entering a harbor one time.
There are modern upgrades to the old plans for Tiki type sails, longer crossbeams for a wider boat, etc etc. Contact the design office and if you tell them I sent you, they might give me a commission.
Nev and I are eager to see a friend's Tangaroa Mk IV which he plans to sail south from Michigan sometime soon. They are smaller, and that is to be expected as well as being less roomy inside. but they sure get the job done. They go good, according to our friend who sailed in the Pacific. He built the ketch and loved it. I would prefer the cutter. But the ketch would leave more room for a deck house. If I had one it would be mostly made of fabric. I am just dreaming. Nev and I will likely sail in Peace IV for the rest of our sailing days. But one always dreams about boats.
Perhaps some Tangaroa people will comment here. I really am interested in the design.
Ann (of Ann and Nev)