Asymmetric spinnaker & genoa control on larger Wharrams - Wharram Builders and Friends2024-03-29T01:12:44Zhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/asymmetric-spinnaker-genoa-control-on-larger-wharrams?commentId=2195841%3AComment%3A137513&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noSounds like fun Norm! Look fo…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-29:2195841:Comment:1376242015-10-29T13:28:30.998ZAndy Best-Dunkleyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/AndyBestDunkley
<p>Sounds like fun Norm! Look forward to hearing how it works out.</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone who has responded so far - all with good advice, the great thing about this forum ;-) It looks like we're going to bite the bullet and order a gennaker soon, so will report back next season - winter is closing in here, temperatures below 0c already in the mornings, so can only plan and dream of warm summer days to come!</p>
<p>Happy sailing to all of you fortunate enough to be in warmer…</p>
<p>Sounds like fun Norm! Look forward to hearing how it works out.</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone who has responded so far - all with good advice, the great thing about this forum ;-) It looks like we're going to bite the bullet and order a gennaker soon, so will report back next season - winter is closing in here, temperatures below 0c already in the mornings, so can only plan and dream of warm summer days to come!</p>
<p>Happy sailing to all of you fortunate enough to be in warmer climes!</p>
<p>Andy</p> Good information, spot on I r…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-29:2195841:Comment:1378092015-10-29T11:38:45.815ZNorm van't Hoffhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/NormvantHoff
<p>Good information, spot on I reckon Roger.</p>
<p>Another thought... I plan to try flying our reacher & spinnaker wing & wing square downwind when I get a chance. I suspect the forward position of the tack-line on the pole plus the wide sheeting angle allowed by carrying the sheets well aft will allow the rig good stability, but of course we'll have to try it first ;-) It would certainly be fun to be able to travel fast running square downwind. I'll post something later if it works…</p>
<p>Good information, spot on I reckon Roger.</p>
<p>Another thought... I plan to try flying our reacher & spinnaker wing & wing square downwind when I get a chance. I suspect the forward position of the tack-line on the pole plus the wide sheeting angle allowed by carrying the sheets well aft will allow the rig good stability, but of course we'll have to try it first ;-) It would certainly be fun to be able to travel fast running square downwind. I'll post something later if it works ;-) </p>
<p>All the Best, </p>
<p>Norm (Tiki 38) </p> I know you are asking about b…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-28:2195841:Comment:1375312015-10-28T16:00:05.130ZRogerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/RogerSullivan
<p>I know you are asking about big wharrams, but for what its worth I have experimented extensively comparing an asymmetric (Doyle APS) on a sprit, vs a tri-radial spinnaker without the sprit on my Tiki 21. The asymmetric is an amazing sail that will sail up to an apparent close reach, but loses its power if you fall below a 90 degree apparent reach. The tri-radial will hold a 90 degree apparent reach all day, but still has power down to a broad reach. If I had to choose only one sail, it would…</p>
<p>I know you are asking about big wharrams, but for what its worth I have experimented extensively comparing an asymmetric (Doyle APS) on a sprit, vs a tri-radial spinnaker without the sprit on my Tiki 21. The asymmetric is an amazing sail that will sail up to an apparent close reach, but loses its power if you fall below a 90 degree apparent reach. The tri-radial will hold a 90 degree apparent reach all day, but still has power down to a broad reach. If I had to choose only one sail, it would have to be the tri-radial because it is more flexible. Note that it is a tri-radial and not a cross-cut, which would not reach as well.</p>
<p>Roger</p> My T30 was rigged with a two…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-27:2195841:Comment:1375212015-10-27T09:14:47.931Zboatsmithhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/qe0j3ojqb10
My T30 was rigged with a two part purchase from each stem to the spin tack. The traveler arrangement absorbs a lot of energy bowing and stretching the traveler line. I prefer the dual tack line set-up.<br />
Our Ariki 48 is set up with an extendable carbon bowsprit. We snap shackle a Colligo continuos line furler to the sprit and extend the sprit and hoist the furled sail and then in roll the sail. When we douse the spinnaker we simply roll it up. We can't go as deep efficiently this way. We can…
My T30 was rigged with a two part purchase from each stem to the spin tack. The traveler arrangement absorbs a lot of energy bowing and stretching the traveler line. I prefer the dual tack line set-up.<br />
Our Ariki 48 is set up with an extendable carbon bowsprit. We snap shackle a Colligo continuos line furler to the sprit and extend the sprit and hoist the furled sail and then in roll the sail. When we douse the spinnaker we simply roll it up. We can't go as deep efficiently this way. We can attach the spin tack to either stem fitting if we need to go really deep. It is usually much faster to jibe down wind especially if the wind is light. When the wind is honking we are have plenty of power and the reduced efficiency of ddw is not an issue. Our spin is 1250 soft. Spinnakers are reall a cool sail for off the wind, especially with a boat with a very small man sail. We also have a 550 soft screecher on a furler which tacks down right behind the spinnaker on the sprit. This sail is for upwind work when the wind is light. Photos soon. I use the same system as abov…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-27:2195841:Comment:1374762015-10-27T08:40:11.814ZBrett Parkerhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/BrettParker
<p>I use the same system as above. If you can afford it, this sail will really bring the boat to life. I never had an ass. spin. for my last boat (a T 30) but I love the one I have for my T 38! You will not regret buying one.</p>
<p>I use the same system as above. If you can afford it, this sail will really bring the boat to life. I never had an ass. spin. for my last boat (a T 30) but I love the one I have for my T 38! You will not regret buying one.</p> I have the same arrangement o…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-26:2195841:Comment:1374692015-10-26T18:56:36.193ZSoLonghttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/SoLong
<p>I have the same arrangement on my tiki 30. The traveller is a help for trimming the Genaker. But I use a rolling system. AND: if I go downwind (120°), the traveller is in luv. So. the wind can fill the sail, wich is not bihind the main. if I go windwards, the traveller goes to lee, because the luff will collapse otherwise. The traveller in the middle is for half wind only.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Maxim Jurgens said:…</cite></p>
<p>I have the same arrangement on my tiki 30. The traveller is a help for trimming the Genaker. But I use a rolling system. AND: if I go downwind (120°), the traveller is in luv. So. the wind can fill the sail, wich is not bihind the main. if I go windwards, the traveller goes to lee, because the luff will collapse otherwise. The traveller in the middle is for half wind only.<br/> <br/> <cite>Maxim Jurgens said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/forum/topics/asymmetric-spinnaker-genoa-control-on-larger-wharrams#2195841Comment137513"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p></p>
<p>We rig our a symmetric spi's as follows : no bow sprit . Instead there is a fixed rope between the bows which has a block on it .It's a traveller so it has two control lines attached to it ,allowing block the to move between the bows .</p>
<p>On a reach you set the traveller block in the middle between the bows the more down wind you go the more you move the tack to wind ward.</p>
<p>This set up is works very well, and is easy and cheap .</p>
<p></p>
<p> Maxim Jurgens</p>
<p> Siam Sailing , Phuket </p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
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</blockquote> We have two sloop rigged T 38…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-26:2195841:Comment:1375132015-10-26T14:41:21.113ZMaxim Jurgenshttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/MaximJurgens
<p>We have two sloop rigged T 38's and two tiki rigged T 30's</p>
<p>We rig our a symmetric spi's as follows : no bow sprit . Instead there is a fixed rope between the bows which has a block on it .It's a traveller so it has two control lines attached to it ,allowing block the to move between the bows .</p>
<p>A second block is attached to the one the traveller rope. Through this block the tack line of the AS is led . Thus you can put the tack of the AS wherever you want between the…</p>
<p>We have two sloop rigged T 38's and two tiki rigged T 30's</p>
<p>We rig our a symmetric spi's as follows : no bow sprit . Instead there is a fixed rope between the bows which has a block on it .It's a traveller so it has two control lines attached to it ,allowing block the to move between the bows .</p>
<p>A second block is attached to the one the traveller rope. Through this block the tack line of the AS is led . Thus you can put the tack of the AS wherever you want between the bows(using the control lines ) and put as much or as little tension on the luff of the AS as you want ( pulling in or slackening the tack line). As the tack is well forward of the fore stay jibing the AS is easy as well. On a reach you set the traveller block in the middle between the bows the more down wind you go the more you move the tack to wind ward.</p>
<p>This set up is works very well, and is easy and cheap .</p>
<p></p>
<p> Maxim Jurgens</p>
<p> Siam Sailing , Phuket </p>
<p></p>
<p></p> Andy,
I got my first furler a…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-26:2195841:Comment:1375062015-10-26T08:18:34.299ZAnn and Neville Clementhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/AnnandNevilleClement922
<p>Andy,</p>
<p>I got my first furler after a Bermuda trip in my old 28 foot monohull. I went forward to bring down the jib and the foresail and raise the storm jib. It was extremely rough conditions and I took advantage of the situation to ask my old friend and then husband of we could have a furler when we got back. His eyes were bugging out at the time because waves were breaking over me. I knew he was stressed out to the max on that occasion and he said yes. Furlers back in the late…</p>
<p>Andy,</p>
<p>I got my first furler after a Bermuda trip in my old 28 foot monohull. I went forward to bring down the jib and the foresail and raise the storm jib. It was extremely rough conditions and I took advantage of the situation to ask my old friend and then husband of we could have a furler when we got back. His eyes were bugging out at the time because waves were breaking over me. I knew he was stressed out to the max on that occasion and he said yes. Furlers back in the late 80s were not as good as they are now, but they were great for safety because you could reef and furl from the cockpit and that old boat took me across the Atlantic twice. Once solo and once with Nev. The furler was a great safety feature and I am so glad I had it even back in those early years when they were not as good as they are these days.</p>
<p></p>
<p>At the upper end of each of the shrouds and also of the forestay on our boat, there is a loop that goes around the mast. If you go to our page, I believe you will find a pic that Clifton Thompson took of those details. It is all to plan and it is super simple and reliable and you can do it yourself, repair and replace everything yourself, etc. This is very old and reliable technology which Wharram is right to use for these designs. We put all new standing rigging on Peace a couple years back at Walter Green's yard in Maine. (That is an excellent yard filled with pleasant folks and it is multihull central and friendly to Wharrams) We are quite satisfied with the dead eyes and lanyards found on the lower end of the shrouds. There is a lanyard at the bottom of the forestay too. You won't want to see another bottle screw again once you master life with lanyards. </p>
<p>A while back I wrote a piece about tensioning our rig using just bare hands and a certain sequence which results in a nice, tight, forestay. We are talking about my old lady hands and we are happy to say the rig is tight and happy. When you have a Wharram built to plan, you learn how to tie knots and how to sweat lines, and you respect and admire these old fashioned ways of doing things. They work well and no sneaky metal fatigue will catch you out on a stormy night by going ping and then a mast falling. Ropes fray and they tell you if they need to be replaced. Truth be told, most of the lanyards and almost all of the beam lashings and both rudder lashings are original on our boat and they have done over 50,000 miles already and look ready to serve for another 50,000 miles. Braided dacron lines are rugged.</p>
<p>The furler goes on over the existing forestay and our mast was up all that day when we replaced the old one and raised the new one. When we got the old furler off, the job was not difficult but we were alongside a dock at the time. The new furler went on easily also. Maybe you could do this kind of work yourself, but Nev is pushing 80 now and so we called in some help with the job. Mike Aiken helped us put it up. He is a musician and rigger and he got us a great price. Find him at Rebel Marine in Norfolk, Virginia. Nice guy, great songs, wonderful pleasant and safe afternoon rigging Peace with reliable equipment. His wife helps with the songs and the rigging too. That yard is schooner friendly and most everybody has had a sail on our boat or spent the night etc. They call Peace "The Island" because she is so big and we did have a lot of parties over the years down in Bahamas.</p>
<p>Andy, just keep persisting with your boat. All will be well and each year she will be better and better and she will teach you what she wants from you and amaze you and your family with the adventures and life learning she will provide to all of you. Three kids and two big dogs. Sounds like great fun! </p>
<p>There are no stupid questions. Only answers that are needed. No better way to get those answers!</p>
<p>All the best, Ann and Nev. </p>
<p></p> Hi!
Norm - ah, yes, quite a s…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-26:2195841:Comment:1372882015-10-26T05:50:58.813ZAndy Best-Dunkleyhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/AndyBestDunkley
<p>Hi!</p>
<p>Norm - ah, yes, quite a size difference, I was quoted for 137m2 sail! ;-) Our mast is 13,8m, and of course we only have one, unlike your Tiki! I like you sail colour - we were just considering black for ours, so you might have started a trend... Thanks for the contact.</p>
<p>Ann - no need to apologise, I did understand what you meant fine. Maybe my explanations were not so clear? Very much appreciate your experience and observations! For us too, ease of handling and safety are…</p>
<p>Hi!</p>
<p>Norm - ah, yes, quite a size difference, I was quoted for 137m2 sail! ;-) Our mast is 13,8m, and of course we only have one, unlike your Tiki! I like you sail colour - we were just considering black for ours, so you might have started a trend... Thanks for the contact.</p>
<p>Ann - no need to apologise, I did understand what you meant fine. Maybe my explanations were not so clear? Very much appreciate your experience and observations! For us too, ease of handling and safety are always prime concerns, with 3 kids and 3 big dogs on board!</p>
<p>I notice that both of you have roller furling for your genoa. Is it straight forward to set up when raising the mast? I've never had a furler so sorry if it is a stupid question!</p>
<p>Thanks again,</p>
<p>Andy</p> Hi Andy,
Bear in mind we're o…tag:wharrambuilders.ning.com,2015-10-26:2195841:Comment:1372862015-10-26T00:19:35.431ZNorm van't Hoffhttp://wharrambuilders.ning.com/profile/NormvantHoff
<p>Hi Andy,</p>
<p>Bear in mind we're only 38' LOA and we have short masts for the wingsails, so our reacher is relatively small, although it's proven most adequate for up to 15knots on the beam, and up to 20knots broad reaching or running. </p>
<p>The reacher came from Hyde sails in Cebu, Philippines. It's a high-tech loft, very impressive. Here's the contact: <span>Simon Pickering <…</span></p>
<p>Hi Andy,</p>
<p>Bear in mind we're only 38' LOA and we have short masts for the wingsails, so our reacher is relatively small, although it's proven most adequate for up to 15knots on the beam, and up to 20knots broad reaching or running. </p>
<p>The reacher came from Hyde sails in Cebu, Philippines. It's a high-tech loft, very impressive. Here's the contact: <span>Simon Pickering <</span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:pickeringsv@gmail.com" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445816525374_15118" name="yui_3_16_0_1_1445816525374_15118">pickeringsv@gmail.com</a><span>> </span></p>
<p>This was the deal: A<span>symmetric sail 37m2 from 1.5oz nylon w/ luff rope @US$1.400 (the Wharram Owl Eyes were an extra $75) </span></p>
<p><span>I guess it's worth mentioning our boat is light and no doubt this helps the reacher work as well as it does. </span></p>
<p><span>All the best, </span></p>
<p><span>Norm </span></p>